[RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

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[RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:19 am

Hi guys. Maybe some of you saw me RPing in conquest, and maybe notice my success using Ice. Ice is usually regarded as a kinda weak type, boasting terrible weakness, even more terrible resistances, but, with proper use, it can decimate most types (with some exceptions.) This thread will slowly be updated about how to fight each matchup, and odds of winning (approximative), to end up with a great and comprehensive topic for the few ice (and people wanting to play ice) here. I'm currently boasting a current W/L ratio of 19/5 with ice on CQ, having lost to steel twice, fighting once, electric once and fire for the lost (Darmascarf shivers).

But Hydre, why play Ice

Here, son, take a sit, and let me tell you a story. The story of the once great Kyurem-white, the destroyer of kingdoms. Legends say he could sweep whole teams by itself with one hand, and with the other, hold his true-love near him.

The White Lord (Kyurem-White) @ Choice Scarf  
Ability: Turboblaze  
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Timid Nature  
- Ice Beam  
- Earth Power  
- Fusion Flare  
- Draco Meteor

The White Lord Analysis:
My son. Kyurem, oh great white lord, please hear my prayer. Boasting SE coverage against : Bug, Dragon, Electric, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ground, Ice, Poison, Rock, Steel, and able to destroy most threats in a single sweep. Rare are the things that can claim to have survived a Draco Meteor, powered at 195BP after STAB, and a wooping 439 SpA after EVs. Only the mighty steel types, or those pesky fairies, can claim to be able to withstand this might. And even then, Fusion Flare/Earth Power can deal with the machines.

Serious analysis. Kyurem-W is the special late-game cleaner of this team, and filling the legendary spot. With 439 SpA, and 317 Speed (without counting the scarf), it can kill most of... well, everything, in one hit, thanks to great coverage. Ice Beam is used over blizzard for the precision, and Draco Meteor over dragon pulse for the sheer damage. Not a lot of other things can be said about The White Lord, except that it sweeped by itself a lot of fire teams, and a few steel teams.

But Hydre... It can die to insert scarf SE hit from physical user here so it's not reliable!

My son... Ice has one great trump card, that I am going to reveal to your eyes, and for your eyes only.

Wanna (Avalugg) (F) @ Rocky Helmet  
Ability: Sturdy  
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def  
Impish Nature  
IVs: 0 Spe  
- Earthquake  
- Recover  
- Gyro Ball  
- Rock Slide

Wanna Analysis:
Wanna. Good lord. Boasting 513. DEFENSE. Along with 393 HP, and being the rapid spinner of this team. It is probably one of the cores of this team, being only hampered by a really lackluster SpD stat, that will leave it dead after 1-2 special attacks. However, predicting a contact move, or even better, a flare blitz/double edge/brave bird will make the opponent suffer terrible damage from both recoil and rocky helmet. Access to recover can make it switch-out opposite threats, and, with proper reading skills, let it regain health and maybe make it get in Sturdy range. Earthquake and Gyro Ball for damage, with 272 Attack stat without EVs.

But Hydre, what about special attackers--

Every team must have a weakness, dear son. But, every team got a weakness, at one point. However, you cannot kill what you cannot outspeed. And this is where this comes into place.

Sekhmet (Weavile) (F) @ Focus Sash  
Ability: Pickpocket  
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Ice Shard  
- Icicle Crash  
- Knock Off  
- Low Kick

Sekhmet Analysis:
Named after a friend's Weavile OC, Sekhmet is a counter lead, anti legend, killer, sweeper and eater of worlds. It is indeed possible for it to run fake out instead of ice shard, to pick out the opposing lead, but I tend to use ice shard for the priority against those pesky brelooms. shivers Mach punch. With an impressive attack, and more impressive speed, it is a force to be reckoned with. Packing knock off, that shouldn't be introduced, and low kick to pick off legends/megas/steel types, and icicle crash for sheer damage, Sekhmet got the potential to destroy teams.

Hydre, what about hazards? I don't see any.

And this is where Mamoswine enters. Mostly known for abusing band ice shard, I found out sash lead to be more... profitable, but I am still experimenting on the EVs. Take this as not definitive.

Moooh (Mamoswine) (M) @ Focus Sash  
Ability: Oblivious  
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe  
Jolly Nature  
- Stealth Rock  
- Earthquake  
- Ice Shard  
- Endeavor

How to Moooh 101:
This is the most straightforward thing I can think off. Stealth rocks against a non-setup lead, else, earthquake it to oblivion. Endeavor can be used against fast anti-leads, then kill with ice shard, and remove yet another threat. Ice shard can be used to pick off flying/grass/ground types, remove sashes, and even make ice cream! 359 Attack stat should not go unnoticed too. Consider piloswine a viable alternative, with eviolite, and as a bulkier hazard setter.

Only one special attacker? This is madness!

THIS. IS. ICE. Alright, seriously. The last 2 ice pokemon coming are both ice types, are both special attackers, but with very distinct roles. Let me introduce you to :

Yeti (Abomasnow) (M) @ Icy Rock  
Ability: Snow Warning  
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD  
Modest Nature  
- Giga Drain  
- Blizzard  
- Shadow Ball  
- Focus Blast

Surprise surprise:
I cannot think of not how this never surprised anyone. With even Special and Physical attack stats, it can be ran as both, but I chose to go with the special attacker set. Blizzard and giga drain allow it to kill a lot of things, while shadow ball and focus blast make great coverage tools that can also take opponents by surprise. However, well, speed. And a lot of weaknesses. The other use is for icy rock hailing.

And last... but not least...

Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Blast
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear

Closyter analysis:
Replacing Jynx that has proven to be unreliable (75% to sleep my ass), I chose to integrate one of the ice team's favorites, Cloyster, that can also be used as a setup sweeper. Being naturally bulky, it can take a few physical hits, but the biggest use will be shell smash, then rock blast/icicle spear everything. I put rapid spin on it because this team DEFINITELY needs a spinner, and even if people will cry seeing it in the moveset, it's better at spinning than Avalugg.

This team however hugely relies on focus sashes to switch on offensive threats and maintain momentum. Means that once avalugg is done for, it can become somewhat less threatening. But still... do not underestimate it. Discussions open in comments/further posts, etc etc.

New section : must have trades. That is, if you find someone willing to trade.

Since trade is something, here is a quick paragraph about the best trades I ever had as ice.

1st, the almighty numero uno... Slowbro, followed by slowking. I will not detail the sets (yet), but... they are just too good to miss. Both totally cover Ice's weaknesses, soaking up a ton of damage, and healing via slacking off/regenerator, and with a slight sweeping potential (aka, calm mind thing).

The 2nd might seem strange, but it kinda fits this team as... I dunnow. Something. I'm talking about rotom-heat, along with kinda every rotom (but not the basic one). Being able to set walls, and use that neat overheat/hydropump for coverage, soaking up a lot of damage, well, doing rotom things in fact, they complement nicely this team.

3rd and not least, Gallade. Slow as heck, but can bring a lot of things down in one hit, and he resists fighting and rock, that is also a plus. It can carry a lot of coverage against the main type's weaknesses.

More will be put sooner or later~


Last edited by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:49 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Switched Jynx for Royster)

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Allyson(Ninetales) on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:44 am

Hai Hydre. Fancy meeting you here x3
Anyways for what I think...Its a 3/4 decent team.. the and i hold down the 1/8 of it making the 1/8 missing since I just don't know what to do with it...
anyways a I was saying...
Sash Weavile, then get Avalanche, decent power and there are time you can't kill everything with Icicle Crash(did I tell you that it can miss?). Avalanche can't miss and since you have sash you can always resort to a 120bp avalanche if you needed to
Next up, Jynx. Did you know she can have Dry Skin and it can be useful against random stuff. And I'm not protesting jynx to move out because its cool and its the most decent Nasty Plot set up
Then, Abomasnow...maybe make him a mixed attacker and let him have Earthquake instead of Shadow Ball. His EVs are up to you, I advice him to be mixed though

Now for the remaining 1/8, You'll have to answer the following:
1) Why would you choose Earthquake over something like Roar or Rest or a statusing move
2) Why did you choose jynx?
3) Where is froslass or glaceon?
4) Why not have Hail for ice domination and blizzard abusation
An additional Question: b) why do you think I like your kyurem-w
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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:52 am

Hey Ally-chan~

1/EQ is for sheer damage. Avalugg is a setup-fodder for fire, and earthquake acts as a 'gotcha' for megazard x, etc.
2/I was looking for a 3rd special thing, and tested froslass, glaceon and cryo for it. They were all in the losing fights. Jynx can put to sleep, nasty plot, and psyshock. Glaceon is more like... something that can heal bell I guess. Froslass isn't that great as a special attacker, and cryo got REALLY poor coverage.
3/Check 2.
4/With only obamasnow as a hail setter, 8 turns run really fast, specially against half the types in here (+ fire for sun/grass, sand for ground/rock, rain for water/other ice players), so it is sadly not reliable imo, at least not in CQ. I still use that for my ice knight team (with obamasnow, aurorus, piloswine, mamoswine, glaceon and swinub/weavile)
b)Kyu-w approves

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Allyson(Ninetales) on Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:15 pm

Hydre(Hydreigon) wrote:Hey Ally-chan~

1/EQ is for sheer damage. Avalugg is a setup-fodder for fire, and earthquake acts as a 'gotcha' for megazard x, etc.
2/I was looking for a 3rd special thing, and tested froslass, glaceon and cryo for it. They were all in the losing fights. Jynx can put to sleep, nasty plot, and psyshock. Glaceon is more like... something that can heal bell I guess. Froslass isn't that great as a special attacker, and cryo got REALLY poor coverage.
3/Check 2.
4/With only obamasnow as a hail setter, 8 turns run really fast, specially against half the types in here (+ fire for sun/grass, sand for ground/rock, rain for water/other ice players), so it is sadly not reliable imo, at least not in CQ. I still use that for my ice knight team (with obamasnow, aurorus, piloswine, mamoswine, glaceon and swinub/weavile)
b)Kyu-w approves
Dunno why I'm so argumentative today e.e
1) no one uses zard x....as of now....
2) apporved
3) approved
4) i mean run hail on your other pokes .-.
b) not the answer i wanted to hear, but close enough
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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:24 pm

1/Raising a valid point. 252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Avalugg: 272-324 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- 252 Atk Avalugg Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 328-386 (93.4 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. Avalugg survives near any physical hit, except if band. And can retaliate by killing with EQ. Huge help for rock, steel and fire still.
4/MOVESLOT SYNDROME MAKES ME QUACK... LIKE A QUACK. Ugh. Not enough moveslots for alladat.

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Espurrfect on Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:49 pm

Walrein > Jynx. Walrein is a nice steel check with specs and can surf/hp fire down Scizor. Its not much but its enough. All I gotta say.
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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:05 pm

Updated with a temporary Walrein set, and a few trade recommendations

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Galom on Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:04 pm

Life Orb > Focus Sash on Weavile.

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:10 am

I tested both, and good lord, sash is just so great for weavile. It can switch on something, then dispose of it, as long as avalugg got rid of hazards

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Galom on Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:51 am

No. Weavile requires Life Orb to turn a lot of 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. It's not that strong of a Pokemon naturally, and Ice struggles to remove hazards anyway, so running a sash is quite counter-intuitive. Also, Ice Shard is piss-weak without Life Orb.

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Fraction on Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:01 am

Well, the thing I've noticed is that your team is horribly weak to my band Scizor. So, if I were you, I'd take up take specs Walrein. Bulky specs w/ Hidden Power Fire is a nice check.

Throwin in some calcs.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 412-488 (120.1 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:08 pm

Avalugg can sustain over b-punches, kyu survives one too, and outspeeds by far if band superpower, so ye. As I said, walrein is in tinkering. As of weavile, I'll try a LO set, but I use ice shard mostly for picking off opponent sashes and the likes

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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Chleg on Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:45 am

Haven't been on in a while...

Anyway.

Change Mamoswine's ability from Oblivious to Thick Fat. This way you can tank plenty of Fire moves including Darmanitan if needed. It would be more necessary than being Taunted because it's normally a frail lead anyway.

Change Avalugg's Gyro Ball to Avalanche. Gyro Ball does not give that much coverage and is extremely useless vs slow Pokemon and Pokemon like Hawlucha which can set up. Avalanche is generally more powerful and with being so slow it doesn't really mind that -4 priority anyway.

Change Ice Shard or Low Kick on Weavile for Swords Dance. This is to maximize damage output and the only real reason you should be using Focus Sash over Life Orb anyway. Swords Dance is almost needed on all Weavile, even on some LO ones.

OR

Change Focus Sash to Life Orb and change Pickpocket to Pressure. This maximizes damage output with Weavile without having the need to set up and what Galom said, edging a lot more KO's.

Change Shadow Ball on Abomasnow to Earthquake. This is needed for Pokemon like Heatran predictions and can be necessary on stuff like Heatran and if noticed, min-speed Magnezone.

Anyway in short:

Change Mamoswine's Oblivious to Thick Fat.
Change Avalugg's Gyro Ball to Avalanche.
Change Weavile's Ice Shard or Low Kick for Swords Dance.
OR
Change Weavile's Focus Sash and Pickpocket for Life Orb and Pressure.
Change Abomasnow's Shadow Ball for Earthquake.
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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Endurr on Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:11 am

hi im endurr


I see you are missing the god and savior of all of my Ice CQ battles

Froslass: Excellent lead, with the use of Taunt to stop hazards, as stealth rock ruins Ice to the point of wanting to throw in the towel. It can be a fast and special attacking variant with it having a decent special attack, or, my personal favorite, bulky sash.

-Notable Niches-

-Fast, which is good for a lead.
-Thunder Wave, which cripples mons that outspeed things like abomasnow
-Taunt, ruins any hazards day, which is great for Ice, who doesnt like hazards.
-Can set up hazards of its own with Spikes.
-Decent Special Attacking output
-and the most notable of them all... Destiny Bond.
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Re: [RMT] Did I feel a chill - Guidelines for Ice.

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:28 am

I did not update this for a while.

I changed avalugg's set already, gyro to avalanche.
Mamoswine is oblivious to be sure it gets the rocks, walrein being with thick fat to take any fire or steel attack (hp/spd bulk).
I'm still working on abomasnow's set, since special is a good lure, but most people already know it, so rip surprise effect.

I'll be updating the main post whenever I got time~

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