Are OP OCs acceptable?

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Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Cryptik on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:12 pm

So. This topic is to ask a very important question. Are OP OCs acceptable?

First, let's define OP. Overpowered, right? But what IS overpowered? I like think of overpowered as a trait for something that can blatantly stop and defeat everything in its way. Whether it be a challenge, or a fight, they can overcome it. Well, what if the OC has at least one life-threatening weakness to water? The OC might be overpowered when it comes to fighting, but can simply be defeated by throwing water atop them. Would this be considered OP? I'd like to think yes. Of course, there is always the chance where the OC refuses to accept its weakness, or makes its weakness hardly affect the actual OC. THIS, is OP.

Let me bring up the "challenge" factor that was previously mentioned. Back to the fighting example, an OC may be incredibly strong when it comes to fighting, but what if they couldn't jump high or run quick? In this way, another OC could easily best the OP OC through physical challenges. There is always the chance of a mental challenge too. I, personally, have an OC that is extremely stupid but powerful. For instance, what if this OP OC can punch through steel, but can easily be manipulated by even an average person. This would not be OP. Yes, there's OCs that are smart, strong, and have a benefactor in fighting. Those OCs are OP... unless they follow my next statement.

Hue, hue. This is most likely the point that I find the most intriguing, and the point that will be debated the most. What if an OC is extremely OP, but isn't in it for the fame, glory, or power? What if this so-called OP OC just wants to have fun? Cryptik, as in my OC, actually follows these guidelines, and after years of RPing with him, I realize that this has to be executed properly to not get called out for it. This OP OC can't make his power obvious, but rather hide in subtly. Of course, this requires the OC to be cunning as well, which can bring up some problems. They also only have to have their goal be one that doesn't interrupt others' plots with absolute OP garbage. Using Cryptik again, he likes to toy with others for fun. Cryptik is not killing, or even hurting, the other OC, but rather toying with them. This can make the RP for the one being toyed enjoyable if done correctly, while still fulfilling the OC's goal but keeping that essence of OP in them.

Well, that's just my personal opinion at least.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Illario on Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:37 pm

this is a thing.

I don't think the first three paragraphs have anything worth noting, but as for the final and 'most intriguing' question- the question of whether a character who has all the capabilities to be considered overpowered but goes against outright using or abusing it unless absolutely forced to- i'd like to say that they'd still be defined as OP.

sure you could say that "what's it matter if they never use it?", and that would be a fair point so long as it was never put to use, but the moment a character throws a punch capable of obliterating an entire forest like saitama the second they're immediately classified as such. if they have OP powers but don't entirely put it to use, of course nobody's going to care, it may as well not exist in the first place.

so essentially i'd say it's a sort of 'innocent until proven guilty' case where the OC wouldn't be considered OP until they actually do something, y'know, OP to harm another non-OP OC. in which case the answer is: it depends. that's really the best I personally could give.

in reality many of these character's exist both in standard television or comicbook series themselves or even in FR. hell, Isis the Dragonite could nearly qualify as it if it wasn't for the fact that he's left vulnerable to be defeated when agitated and reckless, the former happening often. it's all a matter of personal opinion i suppose.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Colora on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:00 pm

Well, I wouldn't necessarily call that being "OP" but I'd suggest something like a Mary Sue test on a character of the like. From what is sounds like, you're describing what appears to be... a character with some sort of perfection in everything.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Cryptik on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:45 pm

Colora wrote:Well, I wouldn't necessarily call that being "OP" but I'd suggest something like a Mary Sue test on a character of the like. From what is sounds like, you're describing what appears to be... a character with some sort of perfection in everything.

This is the entire basis I'm going on. This entire post was on the thought that an OP OC is a perfect OC. In each of my arguments I state that if an OC has one deadly flaw, they shouldn't be considered OP. A perfect OC is what I would call OP. Maybe I didn't make that clear, but this comment could help me further discuss my opinions.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Colora on Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:51 pm

Ah, that'd make sense then... Hmm.

to be honest I think you'd need to have more than one fatal flaw if they're going to be Semi-Perfect lol. That and I'd believe it has to be extremely easy to tell what that weakness is without hints, but still make sense in order to not be considered OP. This is kind of a weird topic to me, I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding either so... I'd rather leave acceptance of OP characters to those it'd be RPing with.

Personally tho, I think I'm against it.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:03 am

As someone who got in a plot with one of those OCs (I quit it quite fast), I can tell, this is VERY annoying. Said OC took hit after hit without any consequence, retaliating, ignoring his attack.s recoil/etc, was somewhat immuned to mind attacks, etc. This is borderline godmod at this point.

There is a very thin line between OP and GM. OP OCs, as said before, got a weakness... That most people don't know, either. GM don't. But when it comes to actual RPing, I can count on my finger the OP OCs that don't godmod.

No-go for me.

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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Psychoreality on Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:23 am

This is a very important topic for me, since I'm one of the line-walkers on this topic. I have one OC in particular. Valkyrie. At this point, she's essentially a death god. But here's the kicker; she only ever attacks anyone if they really piss her off. She's human, and she reacts as a human with anger issues would to a given situation. She's flawed. But by definition, she IS a god. So... what do you do there?

Is this OP? In my opinion, yes it is. But if your OC is never interested in fighting or showing off what they can do, does it cause an issue? No. Anime-like crazy power levels mean very little if they're never used. Just look at Gohan from DBZ, powerful character but never fights so he's considered weak by the show's standards. Here's my bottom line. If you can use a powerful or even overpowered character in a way that people can't distinguish them from a regular character you're doing it right. If you use their over-the-top powers in character development you're doing it MORE right. Saitama from OPM is a good example of writing character development for an OP OC. Make their powers affect their psyche. Just do something other than breaking shit.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Cruella on Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:19 pm

During my time on ps, I have developed a few ocs which could be considered op. However, it took ages for most of these to reach this level and a lot of rping. Furthermore, eventually quite a few of them died. But not everyone is ready to do this.

I believe whether having an op oc is okay or not, is reflective on the roleplayers. Because from my experience, in a kingdom full of op ocs, the line quickly fades from Over powered, to godmodder.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Colora on Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:22 pm

PyrrhonWheatley wrote:Eggs that roll in a straight line are too op

I'm serious, they must be incredibly strong AND balanced to do so
Omai. Every Exeggcute OC is op. I have never thought about the physics of eggs rolling while they move. Something to look at in all OC's! XD
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by LargeJellopy on Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:42 am

Allow Mega Salamence into OU, for it has a "deadly flaw" - it's 4x weak to ice. It most common, so-called OP set, can be soundly beaten by a mon as pitiful as Aurorus. Nevermind that it can take out many of its very few "checks" out of comission with a surprise move from a huge movepool and great attacking stats on both ends, outspeeds and KOs many of the ices that would take it out, is ridiculously durable between Roost, Refresh, Intimidate pre-mega and 130 Defense post-mega, etc.

See where I'm getting at? OP is Overpowered and Overpowered is, by definition, more poweful than it should be. The existence of a "deadly flaw" that the characters interacting with that OC may or may not know, and if they know, may or may not be able to exploit, doesn't change this.

It gets even worse with a flaw like "only attacks when pissed off" because, in this example, one could twist many things into pissing an OC off, one could get the OC in a battle (where it most likely will get pissed off because that's how battles are), one could get a flaw that, while not overbearing most of the time, can be circumvented (like the OP's weakness to water) or are non-issues (like having to be pissed off) when push comes to shove, etc.

Maybe you can get this going on closed plots or somesuch with people who agreed to it (I know from sheer observation that Arti and Rico's plot involved OCs that could be considered OP, for instance, and most people seem to hold that plot in high regard), but from my general open-plot, FR-ish point of view, you either get a reasonably-powered OC who I don't need to tip-toe around in just the way the creator intended due to not being OP and thus not having just one crack on that otherwise-perfect shell, or you get elsewhere.

I'm willing to stretch the line a bit for legendary OCs, due to the permissions being limited, to being more powerful than average being crucial to their legendary flair, and to their presence and use being rather strongly restricted - Hydre's Moltres OC, Verno, for instance, makes stuff like melting off snow in a huge range of taiga, which I'd consider OP for most but it's ok for a legendary like Moltres and brings constructive stuff to the plot of my Aurorus, Waroo, when used in moderation, and moderation is enforced by the legendary perms system and by the legendary, while very powerful, still being plausibly defeatable. This sort of moderation-enforcement doesn't happen to, say, an OP Binacle who kills everyone by the might of its ugliness, because there's no system to restrict the Binacle from being used everywhere a Pokémon can go, no rule about who can use this Binacle, and no guarantee that another like it can't spawn if it is, somehow, killed off.

Overall, OP is out of the question.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Psychoreality on Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:34 am

LargeJellopy wrote:Allow Mega Salamence into OU, for it has a "deadly flaw" - it's 4x weak to ice. It most common, so-called OP set, can be soundly beaten by a mon as pitiful as Aurorus. Nevermind that it can take out many of its very few "checks" out of comission with a surprise move from a huge movepool and great attacking stats on both ends, outspeeds and KOs many of the ices that would take it out, is ridiculously durable between Roost, Refresh, Intimidate pre-mega and 130 Defense post-mega, etc.

See where I'm getting at? OP is Overpowered and Overpowered is, by definition, more poweful than it should be. The existence of a "deadly flaw" that the characters interacting with that OC may or may not know, and if they know, may or may not be able to exploit, doesn't change this.

It gets even worse with a flaw like "only attacks when pissed off" because, in this example, one could twist many things into pissing an OC off, one could get the OC in a battle (where it most likely will get pissed off because that's how battles are), one could get a flaw that, while not overbearing most of the time, can be circumvented (like the OP's weakness to water) or are non-issues (like having to be pissed off) when push comes to shove, etc.

Maybe you can get this going on closed plots or somesuch with people who agreed to it (I know from sheer observation that Arti and Rico's plot involved OCs that could be considered OP, for instance, and most people seem to hold that plot in high regard), but from my general open-plot, FR-ish point of view, you either get a reasonably-powered OC who I don't need to tip-toe around in just the way the creator intended due to not being OP and thus not having just one crack on that otherwise-perfect shell, or you get elsewhere.

I'm willing to stretch the line a bit for legendary OCs, due to the permissions being limited, to being more powerful than average being crucial to their legendary flair, and to their presence and use being rather strongly restricted - Hydre's Moltres OC, Verno, for instance, makes stuff like melting off snow in a huge range of taiga, which I'd consider OP for most but it's ok for a legendary like Moltres and brings constructive stuff to the plot of my Aurorus, Waroo, when used in moderation, and moderation is enforced by the legendary perms system and by the legendary, while very powerful, still being plausibly defeatable. This sort of moderation-enforcement doesn't happen to, say, an OP Binacle who kills everyone by the might of its ugliness, because there's no system to restrict the Binacle from being used everywhere a Pokémon can go, no rule about who can use this Binacle, and no guarantee that another like it can't spawn if it is, somehow, killed off.

Overall, OP is out of the question.

I'm not going to shut down your opinion and tell you it's wrong, but here's the thing. People are trusted to use Legendary OCs because they're good writers and roleplayers. To use a powerful OC without people getting mad at you for it, you need to have a high skill level in writing and roleplaying so that you can work the power into their actual character and not have it just be superficial/offputting to others.

See where I'm getting at?

Sure, an OP Binacle that has literally no reason to be OP other than "fuck it, I want to make people mad at a Binacle" is stupid, but a well-crafted character who has interesting interactions with others and is fun to RP with but just so happens to be strong shouldn't be put anywhere fucking NEAR that. Surely, if the character is used in such a way that you work the powers into the character rather than just beating up others and making them hate you, it should be no different than a Legendary. Hell, perhaps doing this could be considered more original than just having a literal god OC. If someone makes an overpowered OC and pisses people off with it, that's godmodding and they'll be punished. If you never have your OC forced into a situation where they have to attack, and it just so happens they have natural talents or a lot of training, nobody will care.

You say it's perfectly OK for a Moltres to be able to interact with your OCs to improve on them. How is a human OC who so happens to be stronger than an average person any different? Or a Gardevoir who's really good at dodging, but has a fucking reason for it besides "dojdojdoj". Your opinion is your own, and I won't criticise it, but your reasoning is very flawed. I'm not trying to stick up for "for the hell of it" overpowered godmodding. I'm trying to say, there's a fucking grey area between legendaries who RP like they're writing a novel and doj roll, anime bullshit godmodders with twelve Sharingans and three dozen katanas. If you can't accept that, I don't care, but put up with the fact that some can.

(Just going to add a side note. Sorry for the long post and cursing. I just couldn't quite find the words to express my opinion any better. And if there's one thing that pisses me off in this world, it's people saying that others have incorrect opinions.)
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by LargeJellopy on Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:32 pm

The difference between the legend OCs and overall OP stuff is regulation and propriety. Not only the legend OCs are regulated by more than who can use them (they're regulated as well by number available in any given RP, by only being usable on FR, and need a few days before the perms can be used again), but it's just right for them to be more powerful than the average mon, since that's what a legendary is supposed to be. They need to be this powerful in order to be proper and interesting. A human needs not be much more powerful than average for its story to be interesting, and in fact, if one allows much more powerful humans than average with no issue, than it could, with no big issue, become the new average, which is something that twists the scenario's notions of what's powerful and what's not.

If, as in Psychoreality's example, I try and work in a reason for a Gardevoir to be much better at dodging than usual and make a great OC out of this, it doesn't change the fact that I'm stretching the limits of what a Gardevoir should be able to do, and the risk of other people, even good RPlayers, seeing this as a new possibility standard, doing the same, and thus skewing the power levels, is everpresent. In the long term, what has previously been OP would be regarded as normal, people who wanted to make OP would have to escalate even further, and people who make their OCs usual are left in the dust for sticking to the descriptions of what they should be. And I say this because I have been on other RPs where this power-skewing happened.

As I can agree that my phrasing was rather agressive on the last post and the ugly Binacle is something of a strawman, let me stick to the examples on this thread. The OP had initially mentioned an OC that was overly strong but could be stopped by splashing water on it. As Cryptik himself says, this is still OP, because the OC can simply make its home in a desert or something and lay waste with so little water to threaten it, it could use a raincoat to fight off its sole weakness, etc. It's a rather easy weakness to circumnavigate.

The OP had spoke of an absurdly strong but easily manipulable OC as not being OP. I'd be still willing to digress, because depending on how strong it is (e.g: Breaks mountains like Machamp's dex entries tell it can do), the fact still stands that such a hideously powerful beast exists, and furthermore, could very easily cause massive impact on geography and the like, only difference that instead of keeping all this power to itself, others could use this immense, map-distorting power instead. If they're not this level of strong and are more like, say, your usual big bruiser but on steroids and rock armor, then, for Pokémon standards, it's not too OP at all and thus escapes the discussion of whether OP should be allowed.

Saitama from One Punch Man has been mentioned as a good example of how to work the OP into a character, and I agree that, from what I hear, he looks like a pretty amazing example of one. This happens because he's only one, because the power level of the series doesn't try to escalate into his level (hello Dragonball), and because he's mostly tired of what he does. Again, moderation in how many of these OCs can exist is key - should other Saitama-likes be allowed to exist, he'd harshly lose his luster at the spot of the series he's in. This is why I'm willing to stretch the line with legendary OCs, but not with other OCs overall, for legendaries are guaranteed to be moderated in many ways. And here's my other thing with Saitama - should push come to shove and he need to fight, he can solve it with a single punch. As awesome a character as Saitama is, this is not something I'd want to have on a plot, for it kills much of the drama and difficulty the characters could face. And if he's not fighting, then the OP abilities might as well not exist.

Psychoreality mentioned Valkyrie, who, according to himself, is pretty much a death god but only attacks when pissed off. I've already addressed my thoughts on this variety of character - such a flaw means very little when the going gets rough, and thus, even if she's very calm usually, she doesn't need to worry much about battles, should she ever get into them, and should she not get into battles at all, then, again, the OP abilities might as well not exist. The existence of this much power in the hands of an OC that everyone could make also risks skewing the overall power level of the scenario, and we know that this is something we'd rather keep in check.

There is a pattern I have to comment on. I notice that many of the circumstances where the thread justifies the existence of OP characters include them not using their powers, such as Cryptik's eponymous example. At this point, they might as well not be OP. Very interesting characters can (and, in my opinion, should) be made without resorting to these excessive powers, because as you see, even the OP characters can be perfectly playable and good to a plot without using their powers. If you can make the OC interesting without using their powers most of the time, that gives very little excuse to even have these powers, and if you can't make the OC interesting without all this power, then... you should try another concept. That the OP is usually hidden doesn't change the fact that it's there and threatens to kill a large chunk of drama, should the circumstances for its appearance surface. It's as if, instead of a bomb, you propose a landmine. And generally speaking, I'd rather steer clear of plot explosives.

Cryptik defines OP as a perfect character, a Mary Sue, so to say. However, I'd have to say that even if the OP character is as multifaceted as a well-polished diamond, its powers still have it as OP. Gohan has been mentioned on the thread, but OP is also relative to the scenario's power level. I admittedly do not watch DBZ, but as far as I know, the power level in DBZ overall is over 9000 and doesn't ever stop climbing up. Therefore, even if Gohan is absurdly powerful for human standards, as absurdly powerful is the norm on DBZ, it becomes pretty unimpressive in comparison. Add in the unwillingness to fight, and I can see why people regard him as weak. OP is Overpowered in relation to the scenario, and generally speaking, in my opinion, little justifies the existence of characters so much more powerful than the rest, inherence-wise. You need not be perfect, personality and power-wise, to be OP. You just need to have much more power than everything around you, and having existential conflicts, obscure weaknesses, and the like, doesn't change this. Thus, in my opinion, defining OP solely as a "perfect character" is flawed.

Lastly, yes, there's a grey line between legendaries and godmodders. I can accept this. And the very-well enforced moderation the legendaries have is the fence to this grey line. Outside of very well-regulated stuff or OCs that I, perchance, would accept in a closed plot (but not necessarily would endorse for general use), I'm unaccepting of OP presences, for reasons that, I hope, have been clearly outlined above.

OP is still out of the question for me. Hope I've phrased the reasons more clearly and less agressively this time.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Cryptik on Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:50 pm

I see the clash between what OP OCs really are, and from what I can make it, it really determines on the RP. For example, in Freeroam, where you have a fast chat and many participants, several OP OCs can get out of hand, but in a case with Kingdom, there are less participants. As a result, there is more room for OCs to develop and truly show how they can be on that borderline of OP without actually ruining the plot through OP. And back to Cruella's point, you really have to have an understanding of how to RP as an OP OC. We have both been RP'ing as our so-called OP OCs for years now, and have learned to develop them so they don't appear OP.

To that Saitama argument, I define an OP OC as one that can not be contradicted. I may have failed at doing so, but here's an example. Saitama almost failed his written exam, but succeeded in his physical exam by a hurdle. From this you could take that Saitama's flaw may be lack of intelligence, but every enemy he has come upon he has defeated without much struggle. This shows how he may be stupid, but is not flawed. The same applies with OCs. Part of the argument was to show how OP OCs are ones that resemble Saitama (without the possibility of defeat or struggle).

Anyways, this was not designed to contradict your side of the discussion, but rather show what I truly meant and further show my thoughts. I'm surprised this discussion has managed to attract such a strong debate, and I'd like to see it keep going.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

Post by Psychoreality on Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:26 am

As much as I'd love to continue this, I'm going to leave it with this final message.

Out of my 50 or so OCs, I have ONE that could be considered remotely OP. I agree, oversaturation of powerful OCs is bad, but here's the thing. In truth, a minority of plots in any RP (not least FR) are fight-based. A minority of THOSE plots have OCs on the high end of the power spectrum. Could you consider an OC who is a master manipulator through speech OP? How about one who can't fight for shit but is very athletic, as in never loses a race athletic? If an OC is very good at one thing but terrible at everything else, it should be no different in battle than in speech, than in other feats of athletics.

You bring up Valkyrie. Let's look at her pros and cons quickly.

Pros
-Powerful in battle
-Kind-hearted

Cons
-Bad anger issues
-Gets tired quickly
-Can't prioritise
-Terrible memory
-Not sociable

Do you catch my drift yet?

Sure, I don't like the idea of lots of unchecked overpowered OCs running around, but there are inherent flaws with the legend perms system that can make it very uninviting, and making an OC that has big strengths in some areas with big weaknesses in many, many others can hardly be considered Mary Sue, overpowered or impossible to beat. However, in the end it's down to the roleplayer to make that choice. Will you be a godmodder with a super-powered OC nobody can beat, or will you use that character with a great strength in a way that rarely capitalises on it? Can the CHARACTER be blamed for a bad roleplayer? It's like saying "Oh, Sheik is really bad in Smash 4" when you picked the game up 10 minutes ago, and decide to play ZeRo.
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Re: Are OP OCs acceptable?

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