Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

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Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:13 pm

Hello everyone,

Having talked with Neb and Articuno, I am proposing the implementation of the baton pass clause in CQ.

For those that do not know what the baton pass clause is,

Smogon wrote:A new Baton Pass clause is implemented to the ORAS Singles formats for the standard Smogon ORAS tiers (OU, UU, RU, NU). This clause disallows the use of Baton Pass on a Pokemon while also using a move that boosts Speed and a move that boosts another stat, with various exceptions included.

Now, the reason behind this proposition lies behind the absolute unbalance of said baton pass in teams built around it, the biggest targets of it being Smeargle, Venomoth, Gorebyss and Huntail. All four of them can learn either shell smash or quiver dance, along with baton pass. Smeargle in particular can run a shellpass set, or a dangerous spore + belly drum + baton pass set to ensure a clean 6-0 if the recipient is a mega-kangaskhan. Finally, the last targets, are speed boost Combusken and Scolipede, that while still threatening, are slightly easier to counter due to their setup being usually longer than the previous two, and reliability on protect.

Implementing the baton pass clause will also reduce to one the number of baton passer in a team, and prevent psychic to run a baton pass chain.

Overall, baton pass is, while counterable with appropriate means, a very strong playstyle that can prove to be unhealthy, meta-wise.

Voice your opinion below, or PM me here if you cannot comment, to let me know your opinion.

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Sat Jul 23, 2016 12:07 pm

(I forgot to mention Scolipede, thanks Marshall de Vos for pointing it out!)

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Nebulous on Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:07 pm

Baton pass is overpowered. That is all.

It takes little to no skill to use, it has only a few counters. (Sableye, Thundurus, ETC.) And any mon with baton pass can easily set up on any passive, or slow pokemon, since most of them have spore and/or substitute.

The stats that you can pass to pokemon are absolutely insane. You can effortlessly pass speed to heracross. Or, like Hydre said. Pass shell smash to Palkia, which means that if you have any damaging entry hazards up, you've basically already won the match, due to Palkia's great coverage.

Also, Smeargle on normal. I'm sure some people have already dealt with this before, completely ridiculous.
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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:27 pm

Added to the utterly small counter list, are aerodactyl and crobat that can pull of a fast taunt to shut the passers down before they can effectively setup. However, they cannot prevent the baton pass to happen if said passer managed to already setup. Liepard can use a prankster encore, but it otherwise useless.

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by madman404 on Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:57 pm

Yeah, I don't really see a problem with implementing a baton pass clause. Given that this is mostly a meta reflecting off of OU rather than ubers, it makes more sense to be working with OU clauses. However, I'd much prefer this be moved to the regular conquest forum so players can discuss it as they wish.
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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:03 pm

madman404 wrote:Yeah, I don't really see a problem with implementing a baton pass clause. Given that this is mostly a meta reflecting off of OU rather than ubers, it makes more sense to be working with OU clauses. However, I'd much prefer this be moved to the regular conquest forum so players can discuss it as they wish.

Will be done before tomorrow morning, on mobile right now so I can't really move it

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Skitty on Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:33 pm

I think smogon's billions of baton pass clauses are kind of nazi but I agree with it for CQ because you can BP to very strong ubers mons to make them even worst, also agreeing with madman that we should move this to the regular forum. Moving this now.

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Marshall De Vos on Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:18 am

I'm agreeing pretty much with what Neb and Hydre already said. Baton Passing into a few mons usually means it's game, thanks for coming.

Another thing that isn't mentioned in the OP, but I tried using for a bit, is Hawlucha Baton. Unburden + Swords Dance ( or liechi berry ) + Substitute if you have the moveslot for it into Heracross or any other threatening fighting/flying type ( Dragonite, Ho-oh, Gyarados, Blaziken, Terrakion, you name it ) usually means: See you next CQ.

There's likely more exploitable baton pass users, but if you find ways to get them rolling then we all know what happens. We've all been on the recieving end once.
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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Enchidio on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:35 pm

I'm sorta neutral on this because while Baton Pass is strong because the pass itself can be GG, it's preventable in several ways. TWave, strong offensive pressure in general, setting up hazards to ruin Smeargle, fast taunts like stated, Haze (gimmicky though it's worth listing), killing the recipent (especially easy if it's Smeargle passing Shell Smash since you're gonna die if you run White Herb), among other things. I mean, Uber isn't broken because you can pass Belly Drum to all those bulky ubers (gg if you can pass belly drum to physical giratina-o sets) or frail, strong Pokemon with Shell Smash (I remember when I've used SmashPass to make Deoxys-A an even stronger cleaner), and the Uber meta is not broken.. Yes, I know Uber and CQ are two completely different things, but still.

A good restriction should be to be unable to pass specialized boosts (Spe and other stats simultaneously) to your Legendary/Mega slot since they can be somewhat overpowered, though you can still kick ass with things like Lucario. Just my opinion.


Last edited by Enchidio on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:43 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : editing things)

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Fraction on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:49 pm

I think it should be banned, after using a BP Scoli team over the course of a few CQs, I realized how overpowered (and fun) it is. But fun must be sacrificed for a more balanced CQ, I guess.
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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:56 pm

Enchidio wrote:I'm sorta neutral on this because while Baton Pass is strong because the pass itself can be GG, it's preventable in several ways. TWave, strong offensive pressure in general, setting up hazards to ruin Smeargle, fast taunts like stated, Haze (gimmicky though it's worth listing), killing the recipent (especially easy if it's Smeargle passing Shell Smash since you're gonna die if you run White Herb), among other things. I mean, Uber isn't broken because you can pass Belly Drum to all those bulky ubers (gg if you can pass belly drum to physical giratina-o sets) or frail, strong Pokemon with Shell Smash (I remember when I've used SmashPass to make Deoxys-A an even stronger cleaner), and the Uber meta is not broken.. Yes, I know Uber and CQ are two completely different things, but still.

A good restriction should be to be unable to pass specialized boosts (Spe and other stats simultaneously) to your Legendary/Mega slot since they can be somewhat overpowered, though you can still kick ass with things like Lucario. Just my opinion.

You just said it, Uber and CQ are absolutely different. In that, everything in Uber has a form of countering, ever slim, while in CQ... eh.
Also, for the second point, it makes it really, really complex to do. A global ban will definitely be more simple.

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Endurr on Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:37 pm

Baton Pass is too good, and unhealthy for the meta. If you can get hazards and a successful pass, it's most likely good game.

enchi wrote:A good restriction should be to be unable to pass specialized boosts (Spe and other stats simultaneously) to your Legendary/Mega slot since they can be somewhat overpowered, though you can still kick ass with things like Lucario. Just my opinion.]

This does seem like a nice solution, but you can just pass Speed to really strong Pokemon (i.e passing speed to Mega Heracross.) or pass Attack to a really fast Pokemon (i.e Mega Pinsir (who isnt THAT fast but w/e). Overall it seems better to ban Baton Pass in general. Just my opinion.
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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:20 pm

Endurr wrote:Baton Pass is too good, and unhealthy for the meta. If you can get hazards and a successful pass, it's most likely good game.

enchi wrote:A good restriction should be to be unable to pass specialized boosts (Spe and other stats simultaneously) to your Legendary/Mega slot since they can be somewhat overpowered, though you can still kick ass with things like Lucario. Just my opinion.]

This does seem like a nice solution, but you can just pass Speed to really strong Pokemon (i.e passing speed to Mega Heracross.) or pass Attack to a really fast Pokemon (i.e Mega Pinsir (who isnt THAT fast but w/e). Overall it seems better to ban Baton Pass in general. Just my opinion.

Baton pass will not be banned. Instead, passing speed with something else will be.

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Re: Baton Pass Clause - Implementation

Post by Articuno on Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:57 pm

Based on discussion here I think it's safe to add in the clause. Locking the thread now.

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