Current state of Conquest

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Current state of Conquest

Post by Hydre(Hydreigon) on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:44 pm

Hey guys, it's me with another post about my thoughts on a roleplay I feel that is declining.

So, instead of a mindless rant, let's go point by point. I'll try to bring answers to each of them, to correct or minimize them, if possible.
I already discussed some of those issues with people, including 'regulars' and auths, to try to get a wider view of them.


Free-killing of OCs

Probably what is regarded at the current biggest problem in Conquest, is the free-killing rule, without asking perms. While it sounded quite appealing and adding some needed-realism to the roleplay, it soon turned into a hinderance. People just stopped having serious roleplays, simply because someone could come randomly and insist to meet them, the refuse of answering usually ending in the kingdom automatically forfeiting after a PM. It's not supposed to be like that in the rules, but some hosts do. Even then, a proper roleplaying from the attacker solves that, and you're now stuck with an unwanted battle.

"But Hydre, it's the point of Conquest!" Yeah. I know, and this is also the primary reason for me to roleplay in that. There are unwanted battles, comebacks, good moments, but all of those combined don't get to the bottom of that insane issue. It, sadly, is killing off the RP, as people keeping OCs from one to another end up quitting it. Also, no, joining as another OC isn't an acceptable solution. I shouldn't have to make another OC to replace a lord I rp'd as for 3 hours.

A simple answer? Remove the rule. This is simple, and would not cause too much commotion except in the hands of the most bloody conquerers, and returning to the previously-used "perms" system, needing to ask the defeated lord if it's just okay to kill them, or just let them go away.

Counterteaming

An issue now related to the battling-side in Conquest, Counter-teaming is something widely known. It is simply changing your team to give you an edge against an opponent not using the same process. While the rules say it's forbidden, if the person didn't fight before, there is no way to prove it real, even if it's obvious. This can hasten badly the defeat of a warlord, and a quick, easy kill because of the no-perms system. Combined with the new freeing-and-giving-away, being a lone wolf in Conquest has become nigh impossible, removing even more pleasure in the roleplay.

There are, sadly, no easy answers. One that I explored with others but each with their problems is having a team slave, with a pastebin or anything to register teams at the beggining of the roleplay, asking each lord and knight their team once they are done to check. However, this would be utterly tedious and tiresome, also forcing a co-host or an over-burdened host.

"Salt and Cancer"

Now those are words that I despise. But, they are still thrown around in the mouth of players, usually to incitate hate on someone in particular that lost to one unlucky even. We all had that one miss, that one burn that just tossed a game around. It happens. People get angry, sometimes for good, and this is natural from human beings. Yes, there are people behind the computers. Not only you. The problem is, if that person makes an unfortunate comment in the chat, it's ready go for hate waves. Now, who is to be punished, the defeated lord that now dies, or the haters jumping on the opportunity?

The current no-perms and giving-kingdoms systems only amplified it, making it become from a temporary hassle to a dead-end and resulting in angered people.

An answer to this, is to remove said no-perms system. It will not solve the problem, but to me, it will reduce it, even by a tiny bit.

Conquest Hatred

Last but not least, recently, a lot of users came to hate and despise publicly Conquest for its status as a roleplay, calling it a 'tournament'. This is, sadly, but too true as it is currently happening. Recent rules passing only diminshed the already-small roleplay portion of Conquest, as it is now fully-focused on battles compared to the roleplaying that could happen monthes ago. Yes, the room can change, but so suddenly? Not naturally. I love Conquest. I love its mechanics, its small metagame, the roleplay possibilities in it. But this? This isn't just good. It's a shame to see a RP bashed, be it Pokehigh or Conquest, or ANY.

Yes, it's sanctioned sometimes. Most of the times, actually, which is good. But muting someone doesn't remove the things that person said, and the increasing portion of the room starting to dislike Conquest is alarming. And I personnally fear, from my status of member of the 'Conquest Council', that it could soon hit a no-return point.

Thanks for reading,
Comment your own opinions. Keep it civilised and argumented, because things, for me, need to change.


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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Nebulous on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:53 pm

Don't forget metagaming, AKA people acting like their oc's are good friends, and that they know each other, even though their oc's have never actually met each other, like, ever.

Oh, and shitposty RPing.
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Cave_Hamster Cubone on Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:30 pm

Okay, there's something I need to get off my chest. I'm sure it's fairly known that popular people/people good at conquest have people who follow them. Whilst I'm fine with the concept of following someone, I don't see the point in useless hate against the opposing player who just forgot a rule, or is using an unusual set. I'm aware that it isn't the people who are being followed's fault; it's the people who are following are the main issue. I've seen multiple people forfeit battles because they can't deal with the stress. I've been told by people there is an ignore spectators button; and I know this. However, I have this on I cannot talk to the host outside PM's. Therein lies another problem. People hounding you into PM's because they feel you didn't get enough of a flame in the battle. It is for this reason people like myself have stopped RPing in CQ.
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Vlazzah on Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:18 pm

For someone that has roleplayed in nothing but battle-oriented roleplays in the past months, I have grown attached to Conquest.

As such, I feel like I have to express points on what is said.

Firstly, Hydre's completely right, Conquest's on the decline. And the main reason is specifically the freedom of killing OC's, which prevent a plot between users from even starting simply because, as already said, it can end at any moment.

People might argue that good battlers don't have to fear this as they are good battlers, and as such they can win battles even if they're unfavourable, but then, people are basically saying that only good battlers should be allowed to have plots in Conquest? Hell no, that's completely stupid.

Conquest, at it's essence, is meant to be a roleplay above all else. However, with that rule in place, outsiders are able to end a plot if they so much as get a battle, as any battle is never a guaranteed win due to non-controllable factors, and when people that aren't in your plot are able to end it if they wish, then that damages a person's enjoyment of that roleplay.

Which leads me to what I believe to be Conquest's main problem. There is hardly any fun to be had on it in it's current state. That may be just me, however, from what I've seen, I'm not the only one who thinks this. Regular Conquest isn't the only one affected by this either, most other Conquest variants suffer from this as well.
As stated, simply removing the rule will solve quite a few of Conquest's problems, although not all of them.

Another problem I have with current Conquest is the fact that any lord cannot be couped if they so much as make a 'knight battle'. Even if the lord loses, the knight isn't able to coup. I find this, personally, absolutely baffling because the knight has proven to be better than its lord, yet they remain a knight? It makes no sense in-RP.

A simple solution to this is that, if a knight wins a knight battle they either: 1) Coup the lord right as they win or 2) They can launch a couping battle after the knight battle. This will make things a lot simple and actually make some sense, as the better battler will always be the lord since they worked for it.

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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Rico on Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:51 am

I've talked about this a bit but let me put it here so it's more clearly stated somewhere.


Kill Perms: I don't think kill perms should be removed from Conquest. The idea of conquest is that you are the lord of a nation, in a war with 17 other nations. Your goal is to control everything, either by conquest or alliance. There is no reason for you to be in the RP if you are concerned about being killed... that's kind of the risk with being the leader of a kingdom at war.
We are planning to impose some restrictions to encourage RP before you are killed/imprisoned/enslaved/freed, primarily a short timer before a kill is allowed to happen. You can also roleplay during your battle if you wish, giving you more opportunities to roleplay your way out of the situation.

Shit-posting and general low quality RP: If you want to see this change, lead by example. Ask to host more often so you can do things like say "Minimal shit-posting in battles please". If people like that, the RP will probably go for a while. If they don't, it'll end by endpoll. Users decide, at the end of the day, what is fun and what isn't. I do not foresee us enforcing any changes, other than perhaps being more strict about battle chat during an RP (enforcing use of OOC and such).

The other issues raised: Please let a room staff know if you see anything that goes against room rules. This includes attacking other users in OOC, attacking an RP and excessive OOC.



Summing up: Don't RP in conquest if you don't want your character to die. If everybody is killing, you have at best a 17% chance of being alive at the end of the RP (If you are in a 3 person alliance) or a 6% if not. Battling skill aside it is fairly likely that you will be conquered at some point, and if you are conquered it is likely you will be imprisoned or even killed. If you don't like this aspect you are in the wrong RP. Kingdom has a lot of thematic similarity to Conquest without that danger, so I would recommend taking your character there instead and request the host add it to their document if you develop it more.

I don't consider Conquest to be a glorified tournament, despite the implication from above. I do think that people who want conquest to be an RP extravaganza like Freeroam are being unrealistic. The reason I'm involved in Conquest meta and rules development is not because I know a lot about battling, but because this kind of RP (PvP RP) is exactly what I have the most experience with. To make an RP like this work you have to make sure there is something there for both sides. If you want to encourage one, you do it through the other. This was the deal behind conquered pokemon and vassals (although that was also to deal with some abuse cases) a goal to encourage RP by giving thematic PvP rewards.
You can't force people to RP any more than you can force them to Conquer. If people have fun with one more than the other than that's great, more power to them. Ideally they would enjoy both, but it's not the end of the world if somebody ONLY conquers or if somebody ONLY RPs, just as long as they don't get upset when somebody is interested in the other.
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Allyson(Ninetales) on Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:16 am

If I'm gonna choose a side about what I think about Conquest, I would be in between a hard place and a rock.

I've come to grown attached to it actually, maybe because it's my nature to whip up a random OC which comes to my mind unlike what others do where they make their OCs for hours, days or even weeks. But as said it's kinda shit posty and the removal of need for kill perms really made it go farther down the hill (or at least, that's what I observed). Really kinda disappointed when the news about removal of kill perms for Conquest since it has allowed people to make ultra obnoxious OCs which are really.... shallow.

What are the upsides of Conquest? For someone who really can't deny the want to battle, is that I can roleplay and battle at the same time and not just one time only (sorry GvE :c), the roleplay really adds spice for Conquest which most expected to be just some kind of complicated monotype tournament.
In the right situation and with the right people Conquest can shine even more than most RPs because it's one of those very unique roleplays we have in the room.
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Articuno on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:32 am

You guys do not seem to be aware that Conquest has ALWAYS had kill perms. The only reason you're making such a big deal of it now is because for whatever reason, people were not sure and I've been forced to make an entire section devoted entirely to explaining when you can kill someone. 

Additionally, complaining about the restrictive nature of the rules will not fix anything because the entire reason they're there in the first place is because people keep being complete assholes and trying to find ways to bend them or get around them to suit themselves. 

If people STOPPED metagaming, STOPPED couping people who aren't the best at battling to give them a chance to learn, STOPPED doing anything to get a warlord spot even after their first OC was killed, then Conquest wouldn't be so complicated. Instead you have people taking an RP entirely too seriously and in turn, so do I. 

It is not an easy task to balance out both battling and roleplaying. People complain about there being shitpost and just /me walks to kingdom. Well, tough luck. Conquest is the main battling RP in the room and we will never enforce roleplaying aside from actually going to someone's kingdom. People complain about there being too much roleplaying and not enough battling. Guess what? Occupation is now a thing. 

I don't know what you guys mean by "Conquest is going downhill". Is it too complicated? Not as enjoyable? Doesn't have as many participants? Or is it because, just like everyone else, you're not finding it perfectly to your own liking and thus it isn't as "good" as it was before there was even a document written for it?

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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Allyson(Ninetales) on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:34 am

Articuno wrote:You guys do not seem to be aware that Conquest has ALWAYS had kill perms. The only reason you're making such a big deal of it now is because for whatever reason, people were not sure and I've been forced to make an entire section devoted entirely to explaining when you can kill someone. 

Additionally, complaining about the restrictive nature of the rules will not fix anything because the entire reason they're there in the first place is because people keep being complete assholes and trying to find ways to bend them or get around them to suit themselves. 

If people STOPPED metagaming, STOPPED couping people who aren't the best at battling to give them a chance to learn, STOPPED doing anything to get a warlord spot even after their first OC was killed, then Conquest wouldn't be so complicated. Instead you have people taking an RP entirely too seriously and in turn, so do I. 

It is not an easy task to balance out both battling and roleplaying. People complain about there being shitpost and just /me walks to kingdom. Well, tough luck. Conquest is the main battling RP in the room and we will never enforce roleplaying aside from actually going to someone's kingdom. People complain about there being too much roleplaying and not enough battling. Guess what? Occupation is now a thing. 

I don't know what you guys mean by "Conquest is going downhill". Is it too complicated? Not as enjoyable? Doesn't have as many participants? Or is it because, just like everyone else, you're not finding it perfectly to your own liking and thus it isn't as "good" as it was before there was even a document written for it?
What I mainly meant for it's going down the hill is that it's getting more hate and things are getting kinda chaotic, with almost every Conquest having so much people wanting to just kill each other by killing each OCs.
I really appreciate the efforts for trying to balance both battling and roleplaying has been really helpful, recent bans, allowing RU legends to be used, the Conquest Etiquette thread, etc.
I think what mainly people do not appreciate these days is the removal of kill perms since not everyone is willing to kill their character just because they lost a battle.
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Articuno on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:59 pm

Allyson(Ninetales) wrote:I think what mainly people do not appreciate these days is the removal of kill perms since not everyone is willing to kill their character just because they lost a battle.

I don't think you saw the beginning of my post. Kill perms have ALWAYS existed in Conquest. Not to mention there are restrictions on killing people. Don't want to die as a warlord? Ally with two other people. If you and both of your allies die, then oh no, you lost the Conquest. Become a wanderer if you can't handle your fictional character being killed. If you choose not to take knights or allies, then it's your own goddamn fault for not choosing to use the protections provided to you within the rules of the roleplay. I'm sick and tired of hearing all of this "wah my character died" when 1. you cannot be killed under certain conditions and 2. you can COME BACK as another character.

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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Rico on Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:05 pm

To those who want kill perms to be enabled for conquest, can I ask you what's the difference between me killing your character after I conquer the last person in your kingdom VS. locking your character permanently in solitary confinement. At this point, you've lost conquest. There is no way for you to return to the RP as a warlord (you cannot give kingdoms to non-allies and you cannot kill if someone has living allies). So what do you gain from that? Is it that your character is alive? You survived the conquest? Are you planning to use them in the future and think them dying in conquest will matter? How is this any different from dying in Murder Mystery? MM and CQ are both RPs where you can flat out lose at the RP... that's it, you're done, you can't RP as that character anymore, so why should we forbid people from killing you off? What are you going to do in that dungeon with zero interaction from any other user?
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Daisz on Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:46 pm

I fully agree that CQ is slowly lowering itself to be on the same level of Murder Mystery. It is a fast-paced, brutal killing game, with no time for "roleplaying extravaganzas". There is no room for actual plot, because in the end everyone is conquered, and nothing will go on forever because CQ can not possibly last for longer than four hours. It is unlikely that any plot of any kind can carry on between Conquest RPs, because you will probably eventually die, as it were so elegantly predicted.
The amount of people who bother to post paragraphs (including myself) in CQ is slowly diminishing, and that's fine. I completely understand this, because now, CQ is basically MM with battling, as stated, where you are expected to die. And that is completely fine with me (no sarcasm intended). If people want to RP, they should do it in freeform now. That's just my two $ buddy. XD
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Lawful Evil on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:06 pm

ok so i dont participate in conquest(like ever XDDDD) but a good amount of my friends do participate so i often spectate just to watch them. you shouldnt take any of My Opinions™ seriously since i don't have any real experience, but im just gonna give my two cents real quick xd

okay, so, a lot of the CQs i watch have been getting.. blander recently yknow? like theres still the flood of paragraphs in the beginning, but as the conquest stretches over 2, even 3 hours, the rp gets quite obviously sparser. in amphy and rusty, cqs usually don't even have that much quality rping from the beginning. it used to be a good roleplay oriented around paragraphing, descriptions, characters interacting with other characters, and battle prowess, but it seems lately its just been turned into a cesspool of shitpost roleplay(especially in amphy), ooc, salt, and one liners. i dont know what happened or what went wrong, but it's more or less just... deteriorated into MM with battling, like Daisz said. you're either weakness hunted or cteamed quickly(as i've seen people complain) and if you don't happen to be a good battler you get demolished nearly as soon as grace period ends. i really hope CQ can change into something more than just ooc, arguments, and battling. that's just my two $ buddy XD
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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Lux Gracetail on Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:33 pm

Well, my two cents on the state of CQ, perhaps slightly unrelated from the current subject of the thread.

There are two identities to CQ, a battling one and a RPing one.

CQ has potential to be one of the deepest RPs, but there are these mentalities around it, which fills it with one liners and otherwise trashy RP. These mindsets include that “CQ is the main battling RP,” and “Why should I bother setting up, I’ll just lose my plot if I get CQed.”

If people enjoy something, they want to get more of it, while minimising the amount of fluff, in their way. This is seen when people oneline “/me walks to the [blank] kingdom and knocks on the gates.” This barely qualifies as RPing, and is discouragingly half-arsed. The people who are invested in CQ, usually put a lot of thought into the RP, like myself, as well, perhaps I’ve even drawn out a city plan for one of my types. This demonstrates that the two identities of CQ are working against each other.

Everyone knows weakness hunting. Nobody likes it. It's raining on someone's parade, being a dick, most of the time. Inciting people to action. And then it's kill kill kill, the RP degenerates, as the good RPers often don't put that much thought into battling, focusing more on the lore, than the mechanics.

So. If the good RPers are in a plot. And a good battler onelines to their kingdom and CQs it. Can the RPer go on? No, not really. And that's how much time just up in flames? A lot. "So, why bother starting a proper plot?" - Is the question.

Because you know how it's going to turn out. Most Fairy lords won't be able to stand up to Steel lords. It's a fact of the game, at this point.

"Battleless" CQ averts this. - There is CQing, yes, but this model of CQing is much better. Completely chance based, which is a deterrent to the battlers, allowing for RPers to flourish. As they, among other things probably want to show their skill, or are often stronger than the other player. All are equally screwed over by RNG, evening the battlefield, and making it so that the aggressive (CQing) player has to take as much risk as the defensive (RPing) one.

This creates an atmosphere which is more friendly and cultivating of in depth RP.

As a side note, the paragraphing in CQ perhaps carries negative stigma. I will elaborate upon my stance on this at a later point. (Right now I’m a bit too tired and braindead to actually write another essay-like thing.)

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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Vlazzah on Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:29 am

Lux Gracetail wrote:"Battleless" CQ averts this. - There is CQing, yes, but this model of CQing is much better.  Completely chance based, which is a deterrent to the battlers, allowing for RPers to flourish.  As they, among other things probably want to show their skill, or are often stronger than the other player.  All are equally screwed over by RNG, evening the battlefield, and making it so that the aggressive (CQing) player has to take as much risk as the defensive (RPing) one.

This creates an atmosphere which is more friendly and cultivating of in depth RP.

Let me just say, how about not bringing battless CQ to this? Yes, maybe it averts some of the problems of current cq, but unless it completely replaces the current cq, it's not going to do anything to help it. Like, at all. Current CQ will still have the same problems whether battleless CQ runs alongside it or not.

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Re: Current state of Conquest

Post by Articuno on Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:27 am

Honestly I'm a little insulted that people are comparing Conquest to MM because literally the only thing they have in common is that people can die. You guys are complaining about there being "shitposty RP"... that's NOT something we (as staff) can enforce. We will never force someone to roleplay a certain way (with paragraphs or otherwise) so complaining about that is absolutely useless. This kind of complaining is specifically why I created Battleless Conquest - something that ANYONE could have done if they wanted to. But instead you're looking for other people to solve those problems. 

I understand the point of Conquest becoming bland, because on that note I can agree. However, I think it's because it's just the same people participating in it again and again, therefore not adding much diversity. Old feuds get brought up in new Conquests (don't even pretend you haven't gone after someone you don't like to take them out of the RP), and the same roleplayers have the same interactions rather than trying something new. When someone has a copy/paste introduction for their character... well, it's hard to expect something new from it. 

If you have an issue with the content, then generate your own. Who cares if someone might interrupt your plot? I have people who try to come to my kingdom all the time, ignoring the three or so paragraphs I wrote for a description. If they say /me knocks on gates, I just say "User would find that the kingdom has no gates and instead has x". There's no harm in correcting their view of your kingdom - especially because maybe they weren't there to see what you wrote. If you have 4/18 lords posting 3 paragraphs each, that's still 12 paragraphs to read and if you don't have the intention to actually interact with them at the very start, you can't blame them for not knowing. 

I realize there's the argument "well they could just ask". Yes, they could. But some people don't really think of it. Try not having such a pessimistic view of those kinds of people... maybe try encouraging them to roleplay a little instead of just raging at their lack of interaction.

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Re: Current state of Conquest

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