Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

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Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

Post by Psychoreality on Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:04 am

So, Gen 7 has finally rolled around and after only 2 days, the meta has changed dramatically. There are a lot of great new Pokemon that play well with old, some old bans have been reversed and there are two official OU metas: Pre-Bank and Post-Bank meta. So, what could this mean for Conquest? I've been diving into theorycrafting and having some fun on yesterday's beta ladder, and it could be messy.

Old Types Are Made New Again
Poison, Fire, Ice, Rock, Fighting and others were buffed massively with new mons that were introduced. Of these types, I personally think the biggest buffs were Rock, Poison and Fighting. Fighting of course now has the godlike Pheromosa and Buzzwole as Legend options, Kommo-o for special coverage and the Guts buff, while Rock gets Lycanroc-Day, Sand Stream Gigalith, Mega Diancie's buff and access to priority, and Poison gets Toxapex, Salazzle, some fun Z-Status combos, Nihilego and Silvally access. All in all, lots of types got cool buffs, and some got minor nerfs, like, again, Poison losing Levitate Gengar, and Normal getting hit by the Mega Kanga nerf.

Z-Moves, And How They Break The Game
Z-Moves are a once-per-battle wall-melting super move. You have to pick a move with good coverage, and burn an item slot for it, but the payoff is really helpful. Mons like Tapu Fini, Toxapek, Celasteele, Skarmory, Aegislash and others would be a pain to get past without a fight or some RNG. Having Z-Moves gives you a trump card to play and foil any walls that could block your way. My current ladder team runs Waterium Z Azumarill, and while it doesn't beat all walls (most Water types will live it, especially defensive Fini) it deals a significant chunk of damage. However, what makes Z-Moves potentially really broken is Z-Status moves. They use the normal status move and give a buff in your stats. For example, Toxapex's Baneful Bunker gives +1 Defense, while Will-O-Wisp gives +1 Attack. This is dangerous, because it can mean that your opponent could set up on you with a Z-Status and you end up facing a Solgaleo that pulled Z-Splash out of its ass to sweep with +3 Attack. I propose, for this reason, banning Splash and Celebrate from Conquest as these are moves that without their Z variants are useless, but with them are stupidly broken.

Tapus and Terrains
I'm glad Tapus are legendary Pokemon. If they weren't, they would be broken in Conquest. Super duper broken. Terrains are great. x1.5 buff to all moves of its type, plus an extra buff, as long as you're grounded. They weren't worth a slot before, sure. But now, Tapu Bulu and Gogoat bulky offensive core is the dream. I mean, that's a joke, but Koko, Fini and Bulu are great mons with great abilities. Haven't seen enough of Lele to make a judgement, but Psychic/Fairy is a great typing as we see with Garde. Electric, Fairy, Grass and Psychic have been buffed just by these mons existing, but they are legendaries which holds back Grass and Psychic a bit with it, and loses Electric access to Zekrom. Fini is godlike defensively though so I'm not mad with that as a Fairy buff.

Weather Teams
Hail is good now, Sand is better, Rain is better I guess. Drizzle Pelipper is better than it should be. Water, Ice, and Rock/Steel are buffed by the changes. Not gonna go into detail since I haven't run or seen a team like this yet aside from disgusting Pelipper/Swampert/Kingdra rain core. Seems okay.

Leave your opinions/theories/thoughts below. This is just Day 2 meta speculation after reading up on buffs, nerfs and Z-Moves and laddering for a couple of hours.
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Re: Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

Post by Vlazzah on Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:12 am

Another thing people are sleeping on: UB's.

Some UB's are going to get straight banned to ubers, such as pheromosa, kartana and xurkitree due to their outstanding offensive presence or insane sweeping potential, but the other UB's that aren't as powerful offensive-wise, in my opinion, are too powerful defensive-wise to be allowed on general teams, such as stuff like Celesteela.

UB's remind me of things like flying with their triple genies, or psychic and their lati twins + mew + jirachi. I think all the UB's should be considered like mythical pokemon and should be only used on a legend spot. (Considering that I doubt any UB will be RU or less.)

Here's a few UB's and why I think they're just as silly as mythical pokemon.

Nihilego boasts an above-average speed tier in 103 and 127 spa, although not great by any means, is still good when paired with LO or specs.

Buzzwole packs good offensive presence, despite it's trash special defense stat. Although I can see AV be a thing, especially considered it gets access to STAB leech life, while it's ability beast boost increases it's atk by 1 stage for every kill it gets.

Celesteela has skarmory typing, insane 97/103/101 bulk, and despite not having instant recovery like roost, it does have leech life + protect, along with STAB heavy slam dealing good damage with 101 atk and the fact that its heavier than even primal groudon (and somehow it's flying type).

Guzzlord is probably the only UB that has a chance of being RU or lower because, despite it having 223 base hp, it has no recovery, sub-par 53 on both defenses, bad speed and average 101 atk / 97 spatk.

Finally, Necrozma has a decent speed tier for a scarf revenge killer (79 spe) along with decent 127 spa, plus it carries filter as an ability and has 97/101/89 bulk. That stat spread can work wonders for both a scarf revenge killer or a bulky specs wallbreaker. The only problem it has is lack of good special moves. It carries stab psychic/psyshock and dark pulse / flash cannon and can round up with hidden power coverage, but doesn't have much outside of that.

All in all, these pokemon may not be crazily broken by themselves, but when compared to other regular pokemon they stand out easily, which is why I think they should be legend spot-only.

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Re: Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

Post by Psychoreality on Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:19 pm

Ultra Beasts count as Legendaries, surely. The high BST and crazy movepool for a non-evolving Pokemon should really give it away. Pheromosa, Xirkitree and Kartana are getting their asses banned for sure, I can see Buzzwole being crazy good in OU or even an Uber after suspect, and the others have utility too good to not be a legend slot. Note: Nihilego gets Stealth Rock, which makes it the only Poison Pre-Bank Stealth Rocker. That's massive.
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Re: Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

Post by Rico on Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:41 pm

Ultrabeasts are legendaries, I'm not sure why people keep insisting they're not. As a result they will follow the same rules as other legends until further notice. I know you're not necessarily saying that Vlazzah, just a lot of people HAVE (possibly because they don't want to wait for legend perms to drop)

I would think it best to leave worrying about z-moves and their effects on the meta-game to smogon to start with. The metagames are going to be fairly volatile in the weeks to come, but there's so many good applications of z-moves (and bad ones) that I don't think specific bans are the way to go.
Celebrate, for instance, has nothing on Conversion, which is going to buff Porygon a little whilst giving it a new type. That's insanely good in a monotype metagame (see: Protean)
All boosting status moves are completely countered by any sort of phazing. If you can survive the hit, your opponent now has no item and 1 less move (because what are you going to do with splash after that?). Priority and Phazing may be more important as a result, but who knows we'll have to see what the metagame does. At a glance, Tsareena seems to be the best user of Splash as she has good attack and ignores priority. Kingdra does pretty well too.

Mirror Move will also be great on some of the pokemon that can learn it, as it basically gives swords dance, primarily to Staraptor, Swellow and Honchkrow.

Parting Shot is seeing a lot of use as well, granting a spot of healing to pokemon that don't have access via Alolan Persian.

The point I'm making is there's so many options as a lot of status moves have a completely different effect now... but this effect is only once, and it costs an item slot. You may find pokemon seeing more use purely based on their Z-moves, and if that's the case they will end up changing tier. I don't think this will mean you'll see Ubers PorygonZ, but I think it's worth waiting first.
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Re: Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

Post by PixelKirby on Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:35 pm

All I can say is Ground pretty much hasn't changed at all. Didn't keep up with Sun and Moon much anyways...
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Re: Pokemon Sun and Moon's Effect On Conquest: Terrains, Z-Moves and Weather Buffs

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