Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Endurr on Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:45 pm

Hm. I've never really gotten into mono flying, but some of my friends have. Mostly, the only uber I see, when I battle them in the Monotype format, is Lugia. I've seen a Calm Mind + Roost + Psychic + Aeroblast set, but hey, try any legend, its your team, really. So do whatever you want to it, fool around with it, but yeah.
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Dragonite99 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:25 pm

i believe Crobat should be moved to the Uber/Legend spot. Crobat so easily sweep so many teams with its high speed and offensive attacks.

Here's a few moves i commonly see on this Pokemon
Poison Fang- it isnt really one of the greatest Poison type moves out there, but its effect is really devastating (50% chance to badly poison?! Whaaa). Toxic is no longer needed for this 'mon.

Brave Bird: Choice Scarfed w/Brave Bird is super powerful when used correctly. not much to saay here

hypnosis: one of the less common ones, but deadly when used in the correct combos nonetheless

Cross Poison: good alternative to Poison Fang. 10% Poison chance, but high crit. chances. Razor Claw with it and it will crit almost every time


another pokemon that i think should go up to the ubers/legend spot is Togekiss. It sounds stupid, but no one likes the Parahax that comes with Thunder Wave-Air Slash combo. It's BL....but it really is OP sometimes x.x
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Articuno on Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:54 pm

Dragonite99 wrote:i believe Crobat should be moved to the Uber/Legend spot. Crobat so easily sweep so many teams with its high speed and offensive attacks.

Here's a few moves i commonly see on this Pokemon
Poison Fang- it isnt really one of the greatest Poison type moves out there, but its effect is really devastating (50% chance to badly poison?! Whaaa). Toxic is no longer needed for this 'mon.

Brave Bird: Choice Scarfed w/Brave Bird is super powerful when used correctly. not much to saay here

hypnosis: one of the less common ones, but deadly when used in the correct combos nonetheless

Cross Poison: good alternative to Poison Fang. 10% Poison chance, but high crit. chances. Razor Claw with it and it will crit almost every time


another pokemon that i think should go up to the ubers/legend spot is Togekiss. It sounds stupid, but no one likes the Parahax that comes with Thunder Wave-Air Slash combo. It's BL....but it really is OP sometimes x.x
1. Crobat doesn't even have a Mega form, and it's UU for a reason. While its Speed is its highest stat and it has a decent Attack, Crobat's defenses are mediocre and can be brought down by walls such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Gliscor, etc. Because of its low bulk, it's difficult to switch it in.
2. Hypnosis and Poison Fang should never be run on a Crobat. Ever.
3. There are better choices (perhaps not coverage wise) for a fast physical attacker, including Staraptor and Salamence. 
4. If Crobat is locked into a single move with Scarf/Band, you will almost always find a counter/check to that move type. Assuming a Banded/Scarfed Crobat runs U-Turn, Brave Bird, Cross Poison, and Zen Headbutt or Roost, any team with a Steel type will be able to wall it and force a switch.

Crobat's stats and general movepool are just not enough to warrant it being moved to a higher slot. 

Togekiss is an amazing mon, agreed, but still not enough to be put onto the legend/mega slot. 

1. Paraflinch Toge is walled by anything Ground, Electric, or something with Volt Absorb/Lightningrod. Pokemon that come to mind are Scarfed Excadrill, Lanturn, Manectric, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, etc. Chansey/Blissey/anything with Natural Cure or Heal Bell/Aromatherapy will render that para useless.
2. Scarfkiss has a max speed of 426, which is pretty high, except that other Scarfed Pokemon are faster. Basically, anything with a higher base speed of 80 will outspeed. 
3. Anything with Taunt/faster Sub will render Paraflinch useless. 

Basically, both of these mons have reasonable checks and counters and don't deserve to be treated as more than they really are.

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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Galom on Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:57 pm

Translation: "If my team is weak to it, ban it."

No. BK is absolutely right. Crobat isn't even that good. If you really want help checking it, it would be helpful to know the type you are using. There is literally not a single type that should have very much trouble handling it.

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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by GamerA249 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:19 pm

Dragonite99 wrote:i believe Crobat should be moved to the Uber/Legend spot. Crobat so easily sweep so many teams with its high speed and offensive attacks.

Here's a few moves i commonly see on this Pokemon
Poison Fang- it isnt really one of the greatest Poison type moves out there, but its effect is really devastating (50% chance to badly poison?! Whaaa). Toxic is no longer needed for this 'mon.

Brave Bird: Choice Scarfed w/Brave Bird is super powerful when used correctly. not much to saay here

hypnosis: one of the less common ones, but deadly when used in the correct combos nonetheless

Cross Poison: good alternative to Poison Fang. 10% Poison chance, but high crit. chances. Razor Claw with it and it will crit almost every time


another pokemon that i think should go up to the ubers/legend spot is Togekiss. It sounds stupid, but no one likes the Parahax that comes with Thunder Wave-Air Slash combo. It's BL....but it really is OP sometimes x.x

Crobat...Crobat... REALLY, like Blue said Crobat is in UU for a reason, a single electric type can destroy it, you better have this in a UU team or else... it wont be fun for laddering... Crobat+Scarf is still not to good, brave birding can easily bring you to a suicide with out switching, same goes for band. Poison Fang's toxic chance does not make this close to ubers, I want you to meet togekiss Neutral Hypnosis is a hard to hit move, IF somehow crobat got ubers a sleep talker is VERY common. Cross Poison is a decent move due to its crit chance but a razor fang wont do much good due to the fact of crobat's less bulk. Togekiss on the other hand can be countered... If your not fighting me... Togekiss is still slow, even if its scarfed you can counter it. Togekiss also can get countered by scarfed poison jab garchomps which are pretty common. Honestly, your opinions are yours, I wont mess with them, I do disagree with you, but I am not the boss of the fourms, well thats all...
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Lux Gracetail on Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:50 pm

GamerA249 wrote:
Dragonite99 wrote:i believe Crobat should be moved to the Uber/Legend spot. Crobat so easily sweep so many teams with its high speed and offensive attacks.

Here's a few moves i commonly see on this Pokemon
Poison Fang- it isnt really one of the greatest Poison type moves out there, but its effect is really devastating (50% chance to badly poison?! Whaaa). Toxic is no longer needed for this 'mon.

Brave Bird: Choice Scarfed w/Brave Bird is super powerful when used correctly. not much to saay here

hypnosis: one of the less common ones, but deadly when used in the correct combos nonetheless

Cross Poison: good alternative to Poison Fang. 10% Poison chance, but high crit. chances. Razor Claw with it and it will crit almost every time


another pokemon that i think should go up to the ubers/legend spot is Togekiss. It sounds stupid, but no one likes the Parahax that comes with Thunder Wave-Air Slash combo. It's BL....but it really is OP sometimes x.x

Crobat...Crobat... REALLY, like Blue said Crobat is in UU for a reason, a single electric type can destroy it, you better have this in a UU team or else... it wont be fun for laddering... Crobat+Scarf is still not to good, brave birding can easily bring you to a suicide with out switching, same goes for band. Poison Fang's toxic chance does not make this close to ubers, I want you to meet togekiss Neutral Hypnosis is a hard to hit move, IF somehow crobat got ubers a sleep talker is VERY common. Cross Poison is a decent move due to its crit chance but a razor fang wont do much good due to the fact of crobat's less bulk. Togekiss on the other hand can be countered... If your not fighting me... Togekiss is still slow, even if its scarfed you can counter it. Togekiss also can get countered by scarfed poison jab garchomps which are pretty common. Honestly, your opinions are yours, I wont mess with them, I do disagree with you, but I am not the boss of the fourms, well thats all...

Vetoing the moving Crobat to Ace slot.  Ace slots are Legends, Megas, or simply overpowered Pokémon.  [Read: non-mega, non-legendary Übers.  Looking at you, Aegislash.]  

Crobat does not have any broken abilities, Inner Focus prevents flinching, yes.  But there's no need to prevent flinching after you've been OHKOed by the ubiquitous offensive moves which are typed Electric (Thunderbolt, etc), Ice (Ice Beam), Psychic (Not so much, but given, there are still quite a few Pokémon able to run Psychic, Psyshock, or Zen Headbutt ), and Rock (Rock Slide, Stone Edge).

Three of these types are flying's weaknesses, Electric, Ice and Rock, meaning that Crobat has no useful resistances to add to Flying.

Flying's normal resistances are Bug, Fighting and Grass.  Crobat's resistances are Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Grass, Poison.  Not exactly Über level resists, either.  

It runs a few sets sets, generally, a defogger, in which it is completely outclassed by Skarmory and other defoggers, a choiced version (in which it is generally outclassed by Pokémon with better stat distributions, such as Skarmory), a wallbreaker (again, Skarm), and a taunter.

Crobat excels in none of these roles, to the point where it shines, except perhaps with the exception of taunter, in which it faces stiff competition from Aerodactyl.

It lacks offensive presence, inclusive of the ability to sweep teams.  Also, replays back up your argument.

Finally, to put the nail in the coffin to the nomination:


Mega-Charizard X
Mega-Charizard Y
Mega-Gyarados
Mega-Aerodactyl
Mega-Pidgeot
Mega-Salamence
Yveltal
Ho-oh
Lugia
Thundurus
Landorus
Tornadus
Moltres
Zapdos
Articuno
Shaymin-Sky
Rayquaza

Tell me how Crobat is up to par with those Pokémon.


Basically, if you want to consider a nomination for a Pokémon, first, consider the alternatives, the megas, the legendaries, all of them.

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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Dragonite99 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:03 am

wow....i seem to have been making weak arguments this whole time x.x i feel kinda stupid now, so i guess that Togekiss and Crobat shouldn't move up
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by GamerA249 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:45 pm

Dragonite99 wrote:wow....i seem to have been making weak arguments this whole time x.x i feel kinda stupid now, so i guess that Togekiss and Crobat shouldn't move up
Your reasons were maybe able to show crobat somewhat stronger, Togekiss we all know he is OP. Maybe you can do a bit more testing, maybe JUST somehow you can make Crobat OU.
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Galom on Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:07 pm

That's not how it works. In Smogon, the primary Pokemon tiers are not based on viability, but rather usage in OU battles. If a Pokemon is used on at least ~5% of teams in OU (aka, generally appears at least once in every 20 battles), it is OU. The only tiers based on viability are BL, BL2, and BL3.

Aside from that fact, Crobat isn't going OU or even BL anytime soon. It can either run an offensive Defog set that's heavily outclassed by Lati@s or an offensive set that's heavily outclassed by Talonflame or Flying-type choicers like Staraptor or Landorus-T.

Also, Togekiss isn't hard to beat lol. Ground and Electric-types (or anything else immune to T-Wave) slaughter it, it dreads both Paralysis and Toxic, isn't fast enough to sweep, isn't bulky enough to wall, doesn't get a great Fairy move, etc. Far, far from OP.

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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by GamerA249 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:59 pm

Galom wrote:That's not how it works. In Smogon, the primary Pokemon tiers are not based on viability, but rather usage in OU battles. If a Pokemon is used on at least ~5% of teams in OU (aka, generally appears at least once in every 20 battles), it is OU. The only tiers based on viability are BL, BL2, and BL3.

Aside from that fact, Crobat isn't going OU or even BL anytime soon. It can either run an offensive Defog set that's heavily outclassed by Lati@s or an offensive set that's heavily outclassed by Talonflame or Flying-type choicers like Staraptor or Landorus-T.

Also, Togekiss isn't hard to beat lol. Ground and Electric-types (or anything else immune to T-Wave) slaughter it, it dreads both Paralysis and Toxic, isn't fast enough to sweep, isn't bulky enough to wall, doesn't get a great Fairy move, etc. Far, far from OP.

Triattack much?
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Dragonite99 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:25 pm

GamerA249 wrote:
Galom wrote:That's not how it works. In Smogon, the primary Pokemon tiers are not based on viability, but rather usage in OU battles. If a Pokemon is used on at least ~5% of teams in OU (aka, generally appears at least once in every 20 battles), it is OU. The only tiers based on viability are BL, BL2, and BL3.

Aside from that fact, Crobat isn't going OU or even BL anytime soon. It can either run an offensive Defog set that's heavily outclassed by Lati@s or an offensive set that's heavily outclassed by Talonflame or Flying-type choicers like Staraptor or Landorus-T.

Also, Togekiss isn't hard to beat lol. Ground and Electric-types (or anything else immune to T-Wave) slaughter it, it dreads both Paralysis and Toxic, isn't fast enough to sweep, isn't bulky enough to wall, doesn't get a great Fairy move, etc. Far, far from OP.

Triattack much?

aside from Crobat and Togekiss, i have recently begun experimenting with different Flying-types. I discovered that Honchkrow pretty much destroys anything (as long as the opponent doesnt outspeed). I learned that Choice Scarfed, Moxie Honchkrow takes out pretty much anything neutral/weak matchup with Brave bird. I don't know if this is enough reason to boost it up to ubers/legend, though. I haven't done much testing against resistances,, and if it gets Burned or paralyzed, it's pretty much done for.

Just thought i'd make a sort of suggestion and see how it turns out. Honchkrow isn't broken, but it's....powerful
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by bote on Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:44 pm

When it comes to flying, I would just like to put this out there that individual mons themselfs are not broken. If it were the mons, we would have saw a nerf to them in the monotype format. Its the cores that make them broken, and we can't really enforce core bans. So please stop saying that individual flying mons are broken, cause they are not and they do have checks and counters.
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by GamerA249 on Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:02 pm

Dragonite99 wrote:
GamerA249 wrote:
Galom wrote:That's not how it works. In Smogon, the primary Pokemon tiers are not based on viability, but rather usage in OU battles. If a Pokemon is used on at least ~5% of teams in OU (aka, generally appears at least once in every 20 battles), it is OU. The only tiers based on viability are BL, BL2, and BL3.

Aside from that fact, Crobat isn't going OU or even BL anytime soon. It can either run an offensive Defog set that's heavily outclassed by Lati@s or an offensive set that's heavily outclassed by Talonflame or Flying-type choicers like Staraptor or Landorus-T.

Also, Togekiss isn't hard to beat lol. Ground and Electric-types (or anything else immune to T-Wave) slaughter it, it dreads both Paralysis and Toxic, isn't fast enough to sweep, isn't bulky enough to wall, doesn't get a great Fairy move, etc. Far, far from OP.

Triattack much?

aside from Crobat and Togekiss, i have recently begun experimenting with different Flying-types. I discovered that Honchkrow pretty much destroys anything (as long as the opponent doesnt outspeed). I learned that Choice Scarfed, Moxie Honchkrow takes out pretty much anything neutral/weak matchup with Brave bird. I don't know if this is enough reason to boost it up to ubers/legend, though. I haven't done much testing against resistances,, and if it gets Burned or paralyzed, it's pretty much done for.

Just thought i'd make a sort of suggestion and see how it turns out. Honchkrow isn't broken, but it's....powerful
I agree, Honchkrow with a scarf at max speed can really hurt opponents with the moxie, though spamming brave bird can leave to a suicide mission, but FAR from Ubers/OU
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Re: Flying type Uber/Legend spot?

Post by Articuno on Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:19 pm

Dragonite99 wrote:aside from Crobat and Togekiss, i have recently begun experimenting with different Flying-types. I discovered that Honchkrow pretty much destroys anything (as long as the opponent doesnt outspeed). I learned that Choice Scarfed, Moxie Honchkrow takes out pretty much anything neutral/weak matchup with Brave bird. I don't know if this is enough reason to boost it up to ubers/legend, though. I haven't done much testing against resistances,, and if it gets Burned or paralyzed, it's pretty much done for.

Just thought i'd make a sort of suggestion and see how it turns out. Honchkrow isn't broken, but it's....powerful

A scarfed Honchkrow isn't necessarily the best thing to run because its lackluster 71 base speed means it's outsped by any scarfer with a higher base, and any mon with even a single +1 boost. It's usually used with Life Orb + Sucker Punch/Brave Bird/Heat Wave/Superpower (or Roost) as a revenge killer, so the scarf can surprise people who expect a Sucker Punch and get a Night Slash instead. However, Honchkrow's mediocre defenses means it'll likely be killed fairly easily and can't be safely switched in. 

Additionally, Honchkrow is best used on an already-weakened opponent; a scarfed Brave Bird cannot OHKO most neutral mons.

252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 219-258 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 250-295 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
As you can see, though Honchkrow has a decent Attack stat, it can't be fully utilized (other than with Sucker Punch); it can't run a Band because of its low base speed, and the Scarf neuters its ability to really OHKO anything. 


As I said before, there are better scarfed users (even Togekiss would outperform Honchkrow) although yes, I agree that if Honchkrow can get even a single kill with Moxie, it has the potential to turn into a powerhouse. However, relying on Sucker Punch or sacrificing the Attack for the Speed makes Honchkrow tough to use effectively and reliably.

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