[Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

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[Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Galom on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:02 pm

Conquest Type Viability Thread
Led by Galom
Based on Smogon's OU Viability Ranking
Approved by Articuno

Welcome to the Conquest Type Viability thread. It's highly likely that you've seen something done like this before, so this shouldn't be anything unfamiliar. However, this thread aims to judge types viability as a whole, not individual Pokemon in said type. As such, there is a different system of ranking, rather than the usual letter-based one. Note that within a single tier, the order of types is listed alphabetically, not by viability. Ranks will be updated every Saturday, based on the past week's discussion. All changes will be logged and displayed at the bottom of the OP in a hide.

Update 5/31/16: this thread is now run collectively by the official CQ Council.

The changes that have occurred since this thread's origin:
Changelog:
12/7/14:
Normal: High-Mid ---> High
Dark: High ---> Top

The definition of the individual ranks are as follows:
Rank Definitions:
Top Tier: Reserved for types that get primarily fantastic match-ups across the board. These types should have an obvious advantage in a game of neutral type matchup, and should also have ample ways to defeat their weaknesses with relative ease. Types that are weak to these should have little to no chance of winning. Types of this tier should have a vast selection of effective Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or should have few that work outstandingly well. These types should not only be able to defend and conquer kingdoms in their own name with ease, but should also be able to adequately defend their allies simultaneously. These types define the metagame.

High Tier: Reserved for types that get good match-ups for the most part. In a neutral matchup, these types should usually have a slight edge, and should have a decent chance at defeating their weaknesses. They should have an impressive selection of effective Pokemon, Mega/Legend/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or just have a few that work particularly well. These types influence the metagame.

Mid Tier: Reserved for types that get fair match-ups for the most part. In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill. Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Low Tier: Reserved for types that get mediocre match-ups in most cases. In many cases, these types will find themselves at slight disadvantage, even when the type matchup does not suggest so. These types should have at least one answer to a portion of their weaknesses, but should generally not have much of a chance in negative match-ups. Types of this tier often suffer from inadequate rosters, but should be able to at least put together an acceptably functional team. In the hands of a skilled player, however, they can still be effective. These types have trouble adapting to the metagame.

Bottom Tier: Reserved for types that generally get poor match-ups across the board. In almost any battle that they do not have a type advantage, these factions should find themselves fighting uphill. Even when they do have a typing advantage, their opponent will often still have a considerable chance of winning. They suffer heavily from poor rosters full of inadequate Pokemon, and often find themselves completely empty-handed when fighting at a disadvantage. These types often find trouble building an effective team, since they are so lacking in viable Pokemon spanning different roles. Even in the hands of a skilled player, success with these types is challenging.These types struggle to adapt to the metagame.

Current focus of discussion for the next few days:
Topics:
Anything you like.

CQ Viability Type Rankings

Top Tier: Reserved for types that get primarily fantastic match-ups across the board. These types should have an obvious advantage in a game of neutral type matchup, and should also have ample ways to defeat their weaknesses with relative ease. Types that are weak to these should have little to no chance of winning. Types of this tier should have a vast selection of effective Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or should have few that work exceedingly well. These types should not only be able to defend and conquer kingdoms in their own name with ease, but should also be able to adequately defend their allies simultaneously. These types define the metagame.

Dark
Steel
Water


High Tier: Reserved for types that get good match-ups for the most part. In a neutral matchup, these types should usually have a slight edge, and should have a decent chance at defeating their weaknesses. They should have an impressive selection of effective Pokemon, Mega/Legend/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or have one or two that work particularly well. These types influence the metagame.

Bug
Fighting
Flying
Ground
Normal


Mid Tier: Reserved for types that get fair match-ups for the most part. In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill. Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Dragon
Fairy
Fire
Ghost
Psychic


Low Tier: Reserved for types that get mediocre match-ups in most cases. In many cases, these types will find themselves at slight disadvantage, even when the type matchup does not suggest so. These types should have at least one answer to a portion of their weaknesses, but should generally not have much of a chance in negative match-ups. Types of this tier often suffer from inadequate rosters, but should be able to at least put together an acceptably functional team. In the hands of a skilled player, however, they can still be effective. These types have trouble adapting to the metagame.

Grass
Ice
Poison


Bottom Tier: Reserved for types that generally get poor match-ups across the board. In almost any battle that they do not have a type advantage, these factions should find themselves fighting uphill. Even when they do have a typing advantage, their opponent will often still have a considerable chance of winning. They suffer heavily from poor rosters full of inadequate Pokemon, and often find themselves completely empty-handed when fighting at a disadvantage. These types often find trouble building an effective team, since they are so lacking in viable Pokemon spanning different roles. Even in the hands of a skilled player, success with these types is challenging.These types struggle to adapt to the metagame.

Electric
Rock



Posting / Discussion / Nomination Rules:

  1. Post intelligently. Do not just say, "I believe type X should be in tier Y." Mindless nominations will not be tolerated.
  2. Provide evidence for nominations. Things like calculations and replays go a long way in pushing your case.
  3. Stay civil. Flaming, trolling, and other forms of useless posts will promptly be deleted and the perpetrators punished.


Last edited by Galom on Tue May 31, 2016 11:34 am; edited 13 times in total (Reason for editing : Rank updates.)

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Guest on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:06 pm

I believe <Dark> should be in <Top> tier. Hm.. Shitshitshi- I mean. Well, time to actually start writing this nomination, Dark is one of the most powerful tops, both offensively and defensively. When I first make a team, I think of the top tier threats: Normal, Dark, Flying, Water, Steel if I'm not using a Ground team. And Dark is usually on that list, as it has both powerful offensive pokes like Yveltal, Sableye-M, Tyranitar-M, Absol-M, and powerful bulky pokemon like AV Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, and Bulk Yveltal, as well as sweepers like Greninja, Crawdaunt, Hydreigon. It is one of the most powerful types, and defies its weaknesses under a good Warlord's eye. And for these reasons, I nominate Dark for S-Ranktop rank in Conquest!

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by XanthopoulusLurks on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:20 pm

Nominating Normal from High-Mid to High.

Normal, is always a type that always gives people trouble unless :
1) You resist it.
2) You're Fighting.

Even thou they can't hit you,when you don't have any super effective moves to hit them with,you could only just slam super effective moves and pray. While most Normal type pokemons have a wide movepool to demolish you with.

Now, lets take a look at the stars from the NormalMono squad.

Chansey
Let's see. This devil egg will wall you, force you to physical attackers, and wear you down with Toxic and/or Seismic Toss when you can't 2HKO this thing. When you think you kill it, guess what? It's gonna Wish/Soft Boiled in front of your face. This thing,is a top tier threat at Monotypes.

Mega-Kangaskhan
Honestly, they ban this thing for a reason. This thing ignores sashes, breaks your sub and do damage to you, or just Power Up Punch the Sub and break it. Now you're staring at a +2 monster that hits twice. And can Sucker Punch. And somewhat Bulky. But then Ghost types usually walls this thing unless y'know, CRUNCH KANGASKHAN.

Porygon2
Chansey #2, except this thing can be more def bulky. It can Recover, Thunder Wave, and Toxic Stall. But it is still a weaker Chansey.

Smeargle
You'll never know what this thing can do to you. Mostly put you to sleep. Annoying af.

Staraptor
Scarfraptor, best revenge killer ever. Bandraptor, fuck your resistance. I swear this thing hits so hard it goes thru sashes. Then the recent uprising of Bulk Defog Raptors. Which can still do damage.

Heliolisk, PorygonZ, Pyroar
The hardhitter crew from the Special side. Thanks, Gen 6 for giving us Pyroar and Heliolisk.

Ditto
Self explanatory.

And there's a lot I left out too. So,to say, looking at this variety, are you afraid? Oh,you should be. Wait a sec, forgot to add new mega's.

Mega Lopunny
Oh damn this thing is good. Whlist I never use it, I find it tedious to deal with. The speed, the power. Scrappy. This is good enough to compete with Mega Mom.

Mega Pidgeot
The weaker one out of the duo. But I don't expect much from this guy. A tight movepool,but No Guard is quite good. No miss Hurricanes? I'll take it. With no miss Heat Waves as a side gift. Meh,but okay.



Last edited by XanthopoulusLurks on Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Zester on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:19 am

Nominating Ground for  Top tier.

Reasons:
-Has real powerful coverage with bulk on almost all around pokemon, as well as a good damage input, and well rounded recovery for the all suspected tanky pokemon.
-Great Team support depending on which pokes you use, (Example: Groudon with Drought to lessen water type damage, or Hippodown + Excadrill for Sand rush damage sweep)
-Has a real good point on the meta-game, especially on often they're exclaimed as a secondary type
-Fantastic pokemon of use that tie together for form very dangerous teams, if played correctly.
-Can still make up for it's limited Ground Megas/Legendary pokemon
-Makes a VERY viable Trick room team to switch up  most of the whole conquest.

Excellent Revenge Killer, multiple rapid spinners, a viable team carry and tank, A strong-ass Mega, A tricky Trick Room team set up (working well with Claydol/mega camerupt), All pokemon have a very good offensive, defensive, HP tanky Demeter to them. What's more to ask for?

I know this isn't probably the right place, but let me elaborate on this Trick room team's power for a sec. Claydol is the main keep of this team. If you can't keep him alive, you're toast. Mega Camerupt becomes a bigger threat than ever on trick room teams sided with sheer force eruption power. Keep Banded Golurk in back and every dynamic punch you land will definitely mean something. Don't forget about AV Rhyperior for tanky damage killing, and Hippowdown for Sandstorm/toxic whirlwind support. And if you keep Gastrodon in back for water attacks towards any of your pokemon, the opponent will have a tough time trying to out play a team like this.

Ground does have the power to lead a Metagame such as Conquest to Glory, and I'm just the ambassador  for it.  jocolor

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by bote on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:44 am

I agree with both Zester and Xanth, but I do not agree with zester for the same reasons mater of fact I disagree with zester on the reasons why ground should be top tier.

Not only does normal have excess to the beast known as MegaKhan, but also the main two walls, Chansey and Porygon2. Normal has some of the best walls in the game including strong supporting pokemon such as Ditto and Smeargle. Normal arguably has some of the best utility thus it could even be top tier if not that High tier.

Ground always had a really strong generic team. The conquest format does not really remove anything from ground or add to it. Ground was potentially a really strong type in the monotype metagame. The only real thing it loses from its generic team is MegaChomp. And that is not even required.

However Zester, I'd argue that ground does not make a good trickroom team. As you can find yourself vulnerable to any grass move. The fact you would want to use a Claydol, a horrible spinner compared to excadrill, is extreamly laughable. You have no way to maintain a trick room for a long period of time and expect Claydol to still survive, its too gimicky. However I would agree on the nominations thusfar.

Also I would like to nominate Ice and Poison for Mid-Tier. Both of these monos are very similar: Any team you could use in monotype would work for them (Maybe not ice if you decide to run a mega, but Kyurem-W is a must on any ice team) Poison even has mega gengar, who has the best utility in the game. Also because any standard monotype team would work, They don't lose anything in conquest neither do they gain anything.
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Zester on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:15 am

Tour wrote:
However Zester, I'd argue that ground does not make a good trickroom team. As you can find yourself vulnerable to any grass move. The fact you would want to use a Claydol, a horrible spinner compared to excadrill, is extreamly laughable. You have no way to maintain a trick room for a long period of time and expect Claydol to still survive, its too gimicky. However I would agree on the nominations thusfar.

To iterate, It was viable option for those who want to try it. I've destroyed conquest with my regular team, I was just stating that out just because It was on my mind at the time. Trick room is what the name retells, A Trick. You can either fall for it or not. Any Grass move is captured and eaten alive by Mega Camerupt. Claydol isn't all about spinning, it's meant to set the trick room up. Sets and other teams can be extremely "Gimicky" and still work. The point is to keep Claydol alive, and you can easily get switch in's in if need be. I understand what you're saying, however, it was just a suggestion.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Former Hope on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:37 am

lol...ground top tier... that's funny.

It's good, but it does poorly against water and the occasional grass mono. It's worthy of where it is now, but no moving higher.

Also, flying needs to be top tier. It has so many options and the ability to counter and wall so much, it's one of the best types in the game for monoteams.
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by MoniStar on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:45 am

I have to agree with Former on the Ground thing, while it's certainly a great type, I think it struggles a little bit too much against it's weakness and several types.

While I'm not 100% sure if flying should be put on the Top Tier... As It's extremely Cut down with only one Legend/Mega being allowed, I could see a case being made for both sides of the argument, I think it comes down to the people that use it mostly.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Galom on Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:07 am

Former Hope wrote:lol...ground top tier... that's funny.

It's good, but it does poorly against water and the occasional grass mono. It's worthy of where it is now, but no moving higher.

Also, flying needs to be top tier. It has so many options and the ability to counter and wall so much, it's one of the best types in the game for monoteams.
I have to disagree with Flying being Top Tier. Despite the fact that it's absolutely fantastic in normal monotype, it really suffers in Conquest thanks to the loss of Thundurus-Therian and Landorus-Therian. Both of these Pokemon are what helps make Flying as OP as it is, though I will agree that Flying still has some awesome Pokemon. It also has Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Lugia, but I really don't feel that it lives up to types like Steel or Water.

Thoughts, anyone else?

Also, to simplify things, let's keep discussion to Top Tier and High Tier nomination and drops only for the time being. Just as the official Smogon viability threads work down the ladder, we should too.

Nah, actually, it's not like the thread is hectic or anything. Just discuss whatever you like.


Last edited by Galom on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by XanthopoulusLurks on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:32 am

Tour wrote:Also I would like to nominate Ice and Poison for Mid-Tier. Both of these monos are very similar: Any team you could use in monotype would work for them (Maybe not ice if you decide to run a mega, but Kyurem-W is a must on any ice team) Poison even has mega gengar, who has the best utility in the game. Also because any standard monotype team would work, They don't lose anything in conquest neither do they gain anything.

I agree with Poison being upped a tier, but I think that Ice should stay down. Poison is quite a versatile monotype. It can attack, it can play stall, it also have a wide pool of mons.

-Will continue later

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by MoniStar on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:36 am

I agree with Xan, Poison has quite a lot going for it with Extremely Fast Attackers like Crobat and Gengar, Plus some very Bulky Pokemon Like Weezing =P

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Dragonite99 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:06 pm

I think Dragon should move up to High tier. They have amazing offensive powers, and though some lack in defense or speed, they definitely make it up. Ever since Fairy-type was introduced, the type is now seen weaker than it truly is. Amazing combos such as Multiscale Dragonite with D-Dance and Steel Wing make up good combos to counter the Fairy-type. Dragon-types were always capable of learning so many different-types of moves, allowing more flexibility in a team, to cover up each other's weaknesses.
Also, Dark-type should move up to Top tier. They have amazing offensive and defensive powers. Again, adding Fairy as a weakness to it hinders the true power of Dark-types. Using just the right moveset at just the right time could sweep an entire team. The right kind of Umbreon could easily sweep a team with the rest of its party members. Some Dark-types are known for bulk (such as Umbreon), so they make for good team members.
I also think Ice-should move down to the lowest tier. It's a very weak type with not lots of support nowadays. Some ice-types work better in a monotype team that is not Ice (such as Kyurem). I've seen Ice mono teams easily sweep certain types (such as Grass or Flying) but they are easily swept themselves by random other types such as Poison, Electric, and of course teams that advantageous against them.
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Dragonite99 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:15 pm

I apologise for posting twice in a a row.
I wanted to suggest Poison moving up to High-mid tier, if not high. There are super fast Poison-types that can sweep a team. Some are bulky and are good for Toxic setups.Scolipede is a good example, especially with Speed Boost
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Penelope Skie on Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:04 pm

Time to throw in my schtick about tiers and stuff. Because I, as a Normal CQer, nominate:

NORMAL TO HIGH TIER

Now, you see that? I didn't even bother to make the size smaller, for crying out loud. Now, let's talk about why Normal needs to get moved to High Tier:

Mega Lopunny
Believe me when I say that this is a serious threat- It is. As someone who's used this against many, many unfortunate people, this deadly bunny has been known to take down atleast 4-3 of the opposing team if paired up correctly with a excellent shell-smash pass from a Smeargle, which is pretty common. Almost nothing can take this down, as it has one of the highest speeds, a whopping 135 speed- It can outspeed almost anything in the metagame, save some decently fast pokemon with scarf. However, if this gains the shell smash boost, then it is unstoppable- The only blockade to this is really a Mega Pinsir, with a Quick Attack. Even then, if the said Lopunny were to survive the Quick Attack, then it could easily take it down with a Return/Frustration, Ice Punch, or simply switch out into the sacrificial pyre that is Chansey. Along with that, it runs a extremely high-powered fighting type spread, with 2 viable fighting type moves of Drain Punch and High Jump Kick, with its lesser variant, Jump Kick, which hits more, but does less. Even though people may underestimate it for being the 'Playboy Bunny', this little devil can sweep through your teams if you underestimate it too much.

Bringing to my next point, I present:


Chansey
At one point or another, you have faced the pain-in-a-neck Chansey. With a versatile set of trolly moves, a extremely stally health, and an Eviolite to boot, this green/pink egg can stamp teams to the ground if you don't have a Taunt, Whirlwind, Roar, or any other Chansey-proof prevention on hand. Of course, this little egg can crush your team, and to Normal Lords and Knights alike, this Chansey is the pinnacle of stall. If this is the last pokemon on a Normal Conquester's team, beware; You have quite the fight ahead, with the viable sets of Toxic, Thunder Wave, Seismic Toss, Soft Boiled, Subsitute, among other stally moves.

Another lovely sweeper I should mention is:


Porygon - Z
This computer virus is a extremely sweepy, hard-hitting special-attacker. Although not as seen as much as it's far more stally counterpart, Porygon 2, it can still pack a punch like any other. Along with viable sets of Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, and Life Orb, you could also run Focus Sash, as more-often-than not, you might encounter some priority moves, like Mach Punch, Ice Shard, Quick Attack, Extreme Speed, among other things. This virus doesn't even need much skill to set up. In fact, it doesn't even need a complicated set- Simple, hard-hitting moves like Tri Attack, Dark Pulse, Psychic, among others can usually smash teams into the ground, with enough inclination. Even then, even the abilities are great- Adaptability to boost it's already devastating Tri Attack or Hyper Beam, or the gamble of Download, which can boost the Porygon - Z's attack to even more unbearable heights.

I'll rant more later, I don't want to lose this post's data again.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Emperor of Birds on Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:33 pm

The thing about Normal is is that you don't have to rely on legendaries or big megas as much as other types. Knights always have a clear good option in Mega Lopunny, and Normal Warlords have an easy wrecking ball if used right in Mega Kangaskhan. There's not a huge set of legendaries that are used because they are the best in Monotype that are heavily limited because you can only have 1 or a mega (e.g. Flying, though it is still versatile as shit) The core S Tiers on the viability thread aren't even restricted at all (slap pory-2, chansey, staraptor dere u go defense..) and none of the Pokemon below except for the only viable mega really (mega audino and pidgeot are lol). Fighting is a bad matchup, but you have Staraptor so the matchup is still somewhat playable and you can ally with it so you're not going to instantly get wreckd'. Unsure about other type matchups, please mention them here, but I think Normal is either at a good spot right now or maybe up to high tier.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

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