[Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by needler on Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:01 pm

Nominating Fairy for High tier

Fairy has a pretty strong typing, only being hit super effectively by steel and poison. The problem is that both of them are really common.

Sylveon

Probabaly the most overused pokemon on fairy teams. Sylveon hits hard with pixilate special attacks and has a good sustain with it's 130 base special defense and acces to wish. It can also use calm mind which supports both the sustain and attack making sylveon one of the best specially defensive/offensive pokemon for fairy.

Slurpuff


Slurpuff can use belly drum which maximizes it's attack, then recover it's health loss with sitrus berry. It has the unburden ability which doubles it's speed if it doesn't have an item. Slupuff also has acces to drain punch, covering it's steel weakness and hitting poison neutrally. Play rough will hit for a 4x + STAB damage. The fourth move really depends on the user, from facade to another coverage move.

Togekiss

Togekiss's main ability is mostly Serena Grace, which doubles the chance of a moves secondary effect. Togekiss has a good amount of bulk and nice special attack, making it's air slash's hit hard and also have a 60% chance of flinching. The flinch becomes useless if the opposing pokemon is faster, but togekiss can learn thunder wave, which will slow down almost any pokemon (Excluding electric and ground types) and lower their chances of being able to move. Togekiss can also learn aura sphere and flamethrower, both of them are good to cver steel weakness, flamethrower is also boosted by it's ability, raising the burn chance to 20%. Togekiss can also run with a scarf and max speed to outspeed and air slash a lot of pokemon.

Azumarill


Azumarill's base attack stat wouldn't be anything impressive without the huge power ability that doubles it's attack. Azumarill can work with a strategy similar to slupuff, but it has acces to aqua jet, this makes it able to deal big amount of damage with priority. Waterfall and play rough are kind of obvious choices. Azumarill doesn't need belly drum, instead of the bd+sitrus berry strategy, it can be a pure bulky sweeper with superpower or another coverage move as a fourth move.

Klefki


Klefki is referred as the 'troll' pokemon for a reason. IT has the prankster ability, giving priority to any non-damaging moves. This means: Priority thunder wave, screens, spikes or even switcheroo.

Diancie


Being the strongest legend of fairy, (Because of Geomancy ban...). Diancie's mega evolution is allowed, but instead of boosting it's already good stats, the mega changes Diancie, turning it into an offensive pokemon. In normal form diancie has high defenses, with a nice amount of Special and Physical attack. It has acces to: Irond defense and calm mind, boosting it's already high defenses and special attack. It can hit stee and poison hard with a boosted earth power or go for a moonblast stab hit.

As a Mega Diancie can be a pure offensive pokemon with a monstrous 160 Sp. Attack, it has magic bounce, protecting it from any status conditions or other negative effect. (Confuse, taunt, etc) With a calm mind boost that special attack stat gets really high dealing huge amounts of damage even with neutral hits. Diancie's main weakness (In both normal and mega form) is it's 4x weakness to steel.

Other pokemon worth mentioning:
Clefable
Gardevoir
Aromatisse
Whimsicott
Florges
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Galom on Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:51 am

I think this thread has become more reference material than anything, needler, but if others are interested in discussing it, we could possibly see a rank change.

Personally, I am against Fairy --> High. I think Fairy is where it belongs in Mid-High, as it is a good type, but finds itself pretty much utterly hopeless against Steel. High-tier types generally have a method of beating any type, but Fairy has absolutely nothing against Steel.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Guest on Fri May 08, 2015 6:09 pm

Fuck Fairy, its like 7-8 usable mons and a whole bunch of shit. Not to mention the struggle against Fire, reminiscent of Fire's struggle vs Dragon. All fairy types are almost the same, if you're a lord, you probably use Mawile-M + Azumarill + Screens from Klefki, and if you're a knight, I don't know, Gardevoir-M isn't even that good. Its not worth mid-high imo, it struggles against too much.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Galom on Mon May 11, 2015 9:08 am

I agree with you, to be honest. Fairy is lackluster at best, and struggles against a lot of even neutral matchups, especially since GeoXern is banned.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Chleg on Mon May 11, 2015 12:04 pm

In my opinion, Fairy should switch places with Poison. The only reason Poison struggles is because it's an incredibly hard type to use. If you do lots of testing with Poison, you will find that Poison is an incredible type.. and I mean Water good. In fact, the only true reason Poison is mid-low is because of it's complexity of a type.

In my opinion. Poison Mid-Low > High
For mediocre monotypers, Poison Mid-Low > Mid-High
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Former Hope on Mon May 11, 2015 2:17 pm

Sorry, but no. Poison struggles against many common types and can barely touch types it's weak against: Including poison, ground, steel and dark. Even against things it's SE on can struggle. For example the average win rate in monotype (regular monotype, not CQ) is 52% against psychic. Now that's psychic when it's at full power (hint: not CQ) but the only real thing poison gets in CQ over monotype is Gengar-mega. Which while useful, doesn't overcome the lack of power it has.


Now I do agree poison is cool when used right, however it by no means fits the definition of a top tier and is no where near being as good as the water/flying/steel trio is.
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Sabre on Sat May 23, 2015 12:35 pm

Oh, but au contraire, Galom and Death God Anubis! I think I can explain why Fairy deserves High-Tier.

Firstly, the argument that it loses to Fire and Steel. I can list at least two types for any type that counter the type (following general patterns of CQ's in the past), so Fairy is not the only one that fits that description.

Normal-Fighting, Ghost, Rock
Fire-Water, Ground
Grass-Ice, Fire
Fighting-Ghost, Flying, Psychic (sometimes)
Bug-Fire, Fairy, Flying (this was stated by Presents as the bane of Bug)
Electric-Ground, Grass, Fairy (largely due to immense Special Defense)
Ground-Water, Grass
Psychic-Dark, Ghost
Rock-Water, Ground
Dark-Fairy, Fighting (mostly)
Poison-Ground, Psychic
Ghost-Dark, Fairy (out of sheer defense)
Steel-Fire, Fighting (these usually don't do anything to Steel, but many Steel Pokemon are weak to these types)
Ice-Fire, Fighting, Steel
Dragon-Fairy, Ice (sometimes)
Fairy has been said

So, in reality, all types have a few weaknesses they need to check. Also, due to the new Conquest Etiquette rules, weakness hunting is now looked down upon. Resistance hunting might become a thing, but Fairy can check Steel by allying with Fire, also mitigating its failure to fight against Fire.

I think we also need to address to the stereotype is Fairy is just Special Defense. In actuality, no, there are many Pokemon that can be strong attackers in Fairy, such as Gardevoir, Azumarill, Mawile-Mega, Granbull and Slurpuff, most of those oddly physically-based, and most Fairy Pokemon can run a myriad of sets, some are consistently the same on every team, but, for the most part, they can be varied.

Now I'd like to explain the synergy Fairy Pokemon have with each other, and why they are such a good group.

Notable Pokemon (aka my team)

Mawile-Mega
This should be the main sweeper on every Fairy Lord team. With crazy-high attack after Mega Evolution, it can easily KO many Pokemon with just one Iron Head, Play Rough or Sucker Punch. Despite its low speed, other members of its team, such as Togekiss and Klefki, can Thunder Wave opponents, hopefully forcing switches so they can Thunder Wave again. And if the opponent is not paralyzed, Mawile can Sucker Punch attackers. If the opponent is using a status condition or takes a turn to set-up, etc. the player can predict this by using Swords Dance to effectively quadruple its attack.

(I'm just going to shorten the next Poke's to some bullet points)
Sylveon
-Role: Major defender
-Stats: Very good Special Defense with a notable Special Attack stat; access to Pixilate.
-Common Moveset: Hyper Voice (Strong attack after Pixilate that can KO low Special Defense Pokemon and also has the nifty ability to go through Sub), Toxic (Straight damage, great against Stallers, combos with Protect), Protect (to get easy Toxic damage off and combos with Wish), Wish (to heal team or to heal self, combos with Toxic and Protect)

Clefable
Role: Set-Up Attacker with a good amount of HP and defenses
Stats: Fairly low in most stats but a decent HP, Special Attack and Special Defense; the latter two can be boosted, and so can Defense, depending on the set. Also has a nifty Magic Guard that absorbs Leech Seed, Toxic and Will-o-Wisp for the team
Common Moveset: Moonblast (strongest STAB move and combos with Calm Mind), Flamethrower (takes 4x weak Steel types by surprise), Calm Mind (to set-up for huge attacks and major defensive power), Soft-Boiled (to recover predominantly.)

Togekiss
Is it not obvious? TWave/AirS/Roost/Bell. Can shut down Pokemon, OK? That's like the only set for it. Maybe the one Fairy Pokemon that is super predictable.

Klefki
Role: Defender/Hazard Setter
Stats: Decent defensive stats; great defensive typing with Prankster to boot
Common Moveset: TWave (to slow down sweepers), Reflect (to control Fairy's OK defense stats), Draining Kiss (to get some HP from low SDef Pokemon), Spikes (Hazard setting so we can sweep easier.)

Whimsicott
Role: Wall/Just Being Annoying
Stats: OK in everything; great speed and Prankster access.
Common Moveset: Giga Drain (takes advantage of low SDef Pokemon), Leech Seed (get back HP with extra damage, combos with Sub and Giga Drain, somewhat), Taunt (to shut down other walls), Substitute (allows for an easier time Giga Draining or Leech Seeding

Now, that's just my team as a lord. There are a plethora of Pokemon who are Physical attackers other than Mawile, such as Slurpuff, Granbull, and Azumarill. However, Fairy is not very Physically Defensive, and that is its fatal flaw; and the reason I only nominate it for High Tier.

Finally, let's look at some pros and cons of the type.

Pros
-Great Special Stats
-Huge Stall capabilities
-A myriad of playstyles associated with it

Cons
-Low Defense
-Steel Weakness
-sucks against Fire

Sort of in the middle is the "Stall" factor, but I put it as a pro because stall is usually a good thing.

So, that's my reason why Fairy should be High tier. Any thoughts about this explanation? Did I forget to explain something? Were you thoroughly confused by this or were you able to understand it completely. I'm always up to criticisms, so feel free to criticize this in any way you feel.






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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Guest on Sun May 24, 2015 1:43 am

Sabre wrote:Oh, but au contraire, Galom and Death God Anubis! I think I can explain why Fairy deserves High-Tier.

Firstly, the argument that it loses to Fire and Steel. I can list at least two types for any type that counter the type (following general patterns of CQ's in the past), so Fairy is not the only one that fits that description.

Normal-Fighting, Ghost, Rock
Fire-Water, Ground
Grass-Ice, Fire
Fighting-Ghost, Flying, Psychic (sometimes)
Bug-Fire, Fairy, Flying (this was stated by Presents as the bane of Bug)
Electric-Ground, Grass, Fairy (largely due to immense Special Defense)
Ground-Water, Grass
Psychic-Dark, Ghost
Rock-Water, Ground
Dark-Fairy, Fighting (mostly)
Poison-Ground, Psychic
Ghost-Dark, Fairy (out of sheer defense)
Steel-Fire, Fighting (these usually don't do anything to Steel, but many Steel Pokemon are weak to these types)
Ice-Fire, Fighting, Steel
Dragon-Fairy, Ice (sometimes)
Fairy has been said

So, in reality, all types have a few weaknesses they need to check. Also, due to the new Conquest Etiquette rules, weakness hunting is now looked down upon. Resistance hunting might become a thing, but Fairy can check Steel by allying with Fire, also mitigating its failure to fight against Fire.

I think we also need to address to the stereotype is Fairy is just Special Defense. In actuality, no, there are many Pokemon that can be strong attackers in Fairy, such as Gardevoir, Azumarill, Mawile-Mega, Granbull and Slurpuff, most of those oddly physically-based, and most Fairy Pokemon can run a myriad of sets, some are consistently the same on every team, but, for the most part, they can be varied.

Now I'd like to explain the synergy Fairy Pokemon have with each other, and why they are such a good group.

Notable Pokemon (aka my team)

Mawile-Mega
This should be the main sweeper on every Fairy Lord team. With crazy-high attack after Mega Evolution, it can easily KO many Pokemon with just one Iron Head, Play Rough or Sucker Punch. Despite its low speed, other members of its team, such as Togekiss and Klefki, can Thunder Wave opponents, hopefully forcing switches so they can Thunder Wave again. And if the opponent is not paralyzed, Mawile can Sucker Punch attackers. If the opponent is using a status condition or takes a turn to set-up, etc. the player can predict this by using Swords Dance to effectively quadruple its attack.

(I'm just going to shorten the next Poke's to some bullet points)
Sylveon
-Role: Major defender
-Stats: Very good Special Defense with a notable Special Attack stat; access to Pixilate.
-Common Moveset: Hyper Voice (Strong attack after Pixilate that can KO low Special Defense Pokemon and also has the nifty ability to go through Sub), Toxic (Straight damage, great against Stallers, combos with Protect), Protect (to get easy Toxic damage off and combos with Wish), Wish (to heal team or to heal self, combos with Toxic and Protect)

Clefable
Role: Set-Up Attacker with a good amount of HP and defenses
Stats: Fairly low in most stats but a decent HP, Special Attack and Special Defense; the latter two can be boosted, and so can Defense, depending on the set. Also has a nifty Magic Guard that absorbs Leech Seed, Toxic and Will-o-Wisp for the team
Common Moveset: Moonblast (strongest STAB move and combos with Calm Mind), Flamethrower (takes 4x weak Steel types by surprise), Calm Mind (to set-up for huge attacks and major defensive power), Soft-Boiled (to recover predominantly.)

Togekiss
Is it not obvious? TWave/AirS/Roost/Bell. Can shut down Pokemon, OK? That's like the only set for it. Maybe the one Fairy Pokemon that is super predictable.

Klefki
Role: Defender/Hazard Setter
Stats: Decent defensive stats; great defensive typing with Prankster to boot
Common Moveset: TWave (to slow down sweepers), Reflect (to control Fairy's OK defense stats), Draining Kiss (to get some HP from low SDef Pokemon), Spikes (Hazard setting so we can sweep easier.)

Whimsicott
Role: Wall/Just Being Annoying
Stats: OK in everything; great speed and Prankster access.
Common Moveset: Giga Drain (takes advantage of low SDef Pokemon), Leech Seed (get back HP with extra damage, combos with Sub and Giga Drain, somewhat), Taunt (to shut down other walls), Substitute (allows for an easier time Giga Draining or Leech Seeding

Now, that's just my team as a lord. There are a plethora of Pokemon who are Physical attackers other than Mawile, such as Slurpuff, Granbull, and Azumarill. However, Fairy is not very Physically Defensive, and that is its fatal flaw; and the reason I only nominate it for High Tier.

Finally, let's look at some pros and cons of the type.

Pros
-Great Special Stats
-Huge Stall capabilities
-A myriad of playstyles associated with it

Cons
-Low Defense
-Steel Weakness
-sucks against Fire

Sort of in the middle is the "Stall" factor, but I put it as a pro because stall is usually a good thing.

So, that's my reason why Fairy should be High tier. Any thoughts about this explanation? Did I forget to explain something? Were you thoroughly confused by this or were you able to understand it completely. I'm always up to criticisms, so feel free to criticize this in any way you feel.





Honestly, if you beat me with that team versus my Fire, its just plain out hax. Char Y demolishes Fairy, and I have 5 other mons that can spam Fire STAB just like him. Sun Boosted Fire STAB against Azumarill is going to last about 3 turns. Even things like Ass Vest Azumarill, and Sylveon which is a huge defensive wall isn't going to last long. And after Mega Y is dead, I switch to another Fire mon to keep up the offensive onslaught. If you haven't struggled with Fire vs. Fairy with Fairy, you probably haven't fought a good Fire lord yet.  Like I said, that's like Dragon Versus Fire, except Dragon isn't the one doing the onslaught.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill in Sun: 123-146 (30.6 - 36.4%) -- 59.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon in Sun: 415-490 (105.3 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Sun: 243-286 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Sabre on Sun May 24, 2015 2:35 am

I thought this was supposed to look at individual types as a whole; not individual Pokemon. Sure, Sylveon and Azumarill may lose to some Fire types. But there are ways Fairy can take on your mentioned Pokemon. Fairy may lose to Fire, but does it have options for your mentioned Pokemon? The one problem is that defenders of Fairy do not have a lot of chances against Fire-types; however Togekiss, Clefable and Klefki often run Thunder Wave to possibly check these Pokemon.

Also, Heatran wins against Fairy. I'm not lying about that. Unless you run EQ Granbull.

Because I believe we should not consider that one or two Pokemon can counter a team or an individual team, as Galom has stated we need to look at perks for the type in general, I will not be looking at individual Pokemon for this. But I already looked at the perks of Fairy, so now I will provide my rebuttal. So, I will show how Azumarill can check MCY and Darmanitan.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 192-228 (64.6 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On the same Azumarill set, Aqua Jet will do 32.3 - 38.3% to MCY. Chances are, Azumarill will beat Mega Charizard Y.

Onto Darmanitan.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan in Sun: 254-302 (72.3 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Sun: 243-286 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, the Azumarill in this set has Aqua Jet ( 36.4 - 43.3%), so the most likely result is defeat of Darmanitan, granted it is actually able to survive a hit from the Pokemon. If not, the Fairy player may have to resort to Granbull or Mawile(-Mega).

In conclusion, Fairy doesn't auto-loss to Fire. They still have options against other types. They may struggle with Fire; but played correctly, they can pull a victory. The options for other types are all there for the type, and a varied movepool grants them wins with correct playing. I hope this removes any personal bias towards Fairy. I understand you are a good battler, DGA, but I genuinely think Fairy should be High tier, even with pressure from skilled battlers like yourself.


Last edited by Sabre on Sun May 24, 2015 2:36 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : weird wording)

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Allyson(Ninetales) on Sun May 24, 2015 12:06 pm

I nominate Dragon to the High Tier. Both Knight and Lord get a decent mega, Mega Salamence(For Lord) and Mega Altaria(For Knight). Dragon is the house of powerhouses, with choice band Dragonite and Scarf Hydreigon Dragon has superior offensive power.
Dragon has the best mons to offer to you and you can run anything on them, they are just generally weak to Ice and Fairy-types. But their mons have great move pools, their mons have the best stats and they have more resistances than common types have.
With proper alliances, trading and usage I think Dragon can influence the metagame.


Last edited by Allyson(Ninetales) on Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Chleg on Sun May 24, 2015 12:18 pm

Former Hope wrote:Sorry, but no. Poison struggles against many common types and can barely touch types it's weak against: Including poison, ground, steel and dark. Even against things it's SE on can struggle. For example the average win rate in monotype (regular monotype, not CQ) is 52% against psychic. Now that's psychic when it's at full power (hint: not CQ) but the only real thing poison gets in CQ over monotype is Gengar-mega. Which while useful, doesn't overcome the lack of power it has.


Now I do agree poison is cool when used right, however it by no means fits the definition of a top tier and is no where near being as good as the water/flying/steel trio is.

Saying Psychic has a 52% change of winning in Monotype is completely invalid due to this calculating every single mono ladder battle containing Mono-Psychic. This includes good and bad people and other people who are excellent but not included because they don't want to ladder.

Explain how Poison struggle against common types? Poison has reliable walls and decent offensive presence e.g. Gengar and offensive Crobat. Poison has access to immunities to Psychic and Ground, Drapion / Skuntank and Crobat / Gengar respectively.

Ground

Poison has offensive presence of Ice Beam Nidoking and Nidoqueen to put pressure on Ground's defensive core (Hippowdon + Gastrodon.) with the addition of Venusaur.
Now, I am aware of Landorus-I carrying Psychic (mainly for Fighting types) and Poison has okay counters to that. Hidden Power Ice Gengar is getting common and a surprise to the Ground user, KO'ing Lando. After that, Venusaur takes out everything else but Excadrill (and possibly Garchomp).

Now, Excadrill is a massive threat to any team being able to get double speed in sand rush. However, Weezing has the ability to tank out Excadrill and Will-O Excadrill or force switch it out. If you don't have room for Weezing then fully defensive Venusaur with Earthquake or HP Fire can 2HKO Excadrill and easily has everything else under control if it has respectable HP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 218-258 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 146-174 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (KO's after Life Orb.)

Now, Poison does struggle against Ground with mainly Synthesis only giving 25% to Venusaur when Sandstorm is up. However, Poison does have his checks and
counters to it.

Psychic

With the legendary nerf, Poison has a MUCH easier time with Skuntank or Scarf Drapion being able to pretty much defeat a Psychic team when Slowbro (and Lugia) is gone. Gengar also has a big play with Psychic due to Meloetta being gone, giving Gengar a sweep, especially when scarfed. You just simply have to play differently and sent out Gengar in at every time possible, getting a KO instantly.

I don't actually have to say much for Psychic other than Poison has a MUCH easier time defeating Psychic than people think. (In CQ anyway. In Monotype is a lot harder. This is the CQ viability rankings. Very Happy )

Steel

NIDOKING And thats about it.

But seriously, Nidoking is your major win condition, KOing everything Steel has in sight when Air Balloon has been popped from Heatran, which just needs a little predicting. Scarf Drill can be easily done for by Venusaur and you can easily sack something, getting Nidoking back into action. Repeat until Steel's Pokemon over 85 Speed and possibly Scizor are gone. (This should be very easy since Poison isn't actually weak against Steel. Only Excadrill should be the trouble.)

In short, the job is to go full offense with Nidoking until a threat comes out for Nido, switch out to something defensive, use a move that will defeat it and if it switches out, sack something useless against Steel and repeat. (This should work because Steel's walls are not very offensive, exclusion of Aegislash and Heatran, plz legends)


Conclusion

Poison is NOT the best and 100% isn't as good as the Steel, Water or Dark. But saying it's on the same level as Ice and Grass which both have shit typing and only decently offensive presence and wide moveset to back it up, it should be higher.

ADD : Poison also has the 3rd widest movesets of all types.


Last edited by Chleg on Sun May 24, 2015 12:27 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Cuz I wanna)
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Former Hope on Sun May 24, 2015 4:43 pm

Chleg wrote:

Saying Psychic has a 52% change of winning in Monotype is completely invalid due to this calculating every single mono ladder battle containing Mono-Psychic. This includes good and bad people and other people who are excellent but not included because they don't want to ladder.

Explain how Poison struggle against common types? Poison has reliable walls and decent offensive presence e.g. Gengar and offensive Crobat. Poison has access to immunities to Psychic and Ground, Drapion / Skuntank and Crobat / Gengar respectively.

I always laugh when someone says that monotype and CQ are invalid comparisons. As someone who built Conquest and who (used to) play heavily in monotype. The metagames tend to be very similar, only three differences really. The pokemon pool in CQ is slightly larger, but smaller as well. And Monotype packs more skilled players. Not to mention, the guy who started the monotype match up chart is the same guy who calculates all of the usage statistics for smogon's official stuff. So I seriously hope you aren't implying they don't know how to correctly choose an appropriate way to accurately measure this, as that would be just plain false.

Poison, while good on paper. Really just is lacking in general. While it has a few defensive walls, it relies heavily on a certain few. Which basically sums up the type, it has some stuff. But the type in general is pretty blah and requires a ton of skill just to use decently.

Chleg wrote:
Ground

Poison has offensive presence of Ice Beam Nidoking and Nidoqueen to put pressure on Ground's defensive core (Hippowdon + Gastrodon.) with the addition of Venusaur.
Now, I am aware of Landorus-I carrying Psychic (mainly for Fighting types) and Poison has okay counters to that. Hidden Power Ice Gengar is getting common and a surprise to the Ground user, KO'ing Lando. After that, Venusaur takes out everything else but Excadrill (and possibly Garchomp).

Now, Excadrill is a massive threat to any team being able to get double speed in sand rush. However, Weezing has the ability to tank out Excadrill and Will-O Excadrill or force switch it out. If you don't have room for Weezing then fully defensive Venusaur with Earthquake or HP Fire can 2HKO Excadrill and easily has everything else under control if it has respectable HP.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 218-258 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 146-174 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (KO's after Life Orb.)

Now, Poison does struggle against Ground with mainly Synthesis only giving 25% to Venusaur when Sandstorm is up. However, Poison does have his checks and
counters to it.
Ground vs Poison is almost always an autowin for Ground. Yes, on paper you make it seem good. But go out there and play on the monotype ladder again ground. Then you'll really see that while it can appear to have a chance, it gets blown away by things like Mamoswine who would obliterate your Nido's. Lando-i would also put similar hurt on your team, sure maybe you could switch in that odd gengar set and revenge kill. But then they just switch out and attack you another way and bring back Landy sometime later, because gengar quite simply switch into anything very easily. Truly, just go out there and play this match up.

Chleg wrote:
Psychic

With the legendary nerf, Poison has a MUCH easier time with Skuntank or Scarf Drapion being able to pretty much defeat a Psychic team when Slowbro (and Lugia) is gone. Gengar also has a big play with Psychic due to Meloetta being gone, giving Gengar a sweep, especially when scarfed. You just simply have to play differently and sent out Gengar in at every time possible, getting a KO instantly.

I don't actually have to say much for Psychic other than Poison has a MUCH easier time defeating Psychic than people think. (In CQ anyway. In Monotype is a lot harder. This is the CQ viability rankings. Very Happy )
True, sadly psychic loses most of what makes it good in CQ with the current restrictions. Except things like Alakazam with a sash will absolutely wreck your gengar. (and scarf gengar...lol. Don't throw away your item spot so easily, except in counter teaming which you shouldn't do anyways). Not to mention, in the odd case they pack a Megagross (which I'll get back to later in steel), they would dominate most of what you have. True, you have some major threats with sucker punching skuntank, which combined with knock off psychic is mucho weak to. However if they pack medicham, gallade or even a mega of those, that threat becomes quite a bit less. It really comes down to what mega the psychic team is based around, however the majority of match ups the psychic team will have the upper hand.

Chleg wrote:
Steel

NIDOKING And thats about it.

But seriously, Nidoking is your major win condition, KOing everything Steel has in sight when Air Balloon has been popped from Heatran, which just needs a little predicting. Scarf Drill can be easily done for by Venusaur and you can easily sack something, getting Nidoking back into action. Repeat until Steel's Pokemon over 85 Speed and possibly Scizor are gone. (This should be very easy since Poison isn't actually weak against Steel. Only Excadrill should be the trouble.)

In short, the job is to go full offense with Nidoking until a threat comes out for Nido, switch out to something defensive, use a move that will defeat it and if it switches out, sack something useless against Steel and repeat. (This should work because Steel's walls are not very offensive, exclusion of Aegislash and Heatran, plz legends)

This is almost as bad a match up as ground is. But no, Nidoking wouldn't help you at all against Steel's incredibly powerful offensive and defensive prowess. Scarf, Moldbreaker Excadrill (a pretty common set) alone would decimate most of your team. With it's EQ's hitting both your Weezing and Gengar for 2OHKO/OHKO, in fact, besides crobat, that Excadrill set alone would probably win most of the game. I say most, because with Megasaur you actually do have a somewhat decent counter, but megasaur can't stand up well against Skarm which would not only be immune to your EQ's, but would also phase well. This calculation seems heavily based upon fighting against a stupid enemy who doesn't know how to switch. But try this in practice, against someone of a decent skill level and you'd get totally wrecked. Also again, Megagross pretty much decimates the team you presented. The only real threat is sucker punchers, but unless you have two of them and predict well. You won't get more than one off before you lose your SPer.

Chleg wrote:
Conclusion

Poison is NOT the best and 100% isn't as good as the Steel, Water or Dark. But saying it's on the same level as Ice and Grass which both have shit typing and only decently offensive presence and wide moveset to back it up, it should be higher.

ADD : Poison also has the 3rd widest movesets of all types.

I do admit, I was thinking of poison pre gen-6 which was just flat out awful. Though gen 6 has been very nice to it giving it probably the only good tank it has in Mega Venu. But this:
"Reserved for types that get mediocre match-ups in most cases. In many cases, these types will find themselves at slight disadvantage, even when the type matchup does not suggest so. These types should have at least one answer to a portion of their weaknesses, but should generally not have much of a chance in negative match-ups. Types of this tier often suffer from inadequate rosters, but should be able to at least put together an acceptably functional team. In the hands of a skilled player, however, they can still be effective. These types have trouble adapting to the metagame."

Describes poison so much more better than the description of high tier.

Honestly, just go out there and play poison in practice. While it can look go on paper, it struggles in practice.
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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Chleg on Sun May 24, 2015 5:00 pm

High-Mid Tier: Reserved for types that get fair match-ups for the most part. In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill. Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Fair matchups - I will say in my opinion that Poison does get a decent match up against all the types, being weak and having the advantage to types.

In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill.

This one is clear. Poison is extremely hard and complex to use and will affect drastically due to player. They also have a few reliable ways to switch into Ground and Psychic. As you mentioned, Poison still has the disadvantage of fighting some upper class types and it's weaknesses.

Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Poison has a massive variety of viable Poison types ranging from Crobat to Nidoqueen. Poison also has decent play-styles which create flexibility and creativity(?) when building teams. Also, Poison CAN adapt to the metagame if it has around a 50/50 matchup against a GOOD vs GOOD player.

Now explain, how does Fire also adapt to that. (Which I personally doesn't deserve to be mid-high.)



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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Guest on Mon May 25, 2015 12:35 pm

Chleg wrote:High-Mid Tier: Reserved for types that get fair match-ups for the most part. In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill. Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Fair matchups - I will say in my opinion that Poison does get a decent match up against all the types, being weak and having the advantage to types.

In a neutral typing dispute involving these types, the outcome of the battle should depend largely on the skill and team quality of the players, and they should at least have one way around all of their weaknesses, but will likely struggle to achieve victory when fighting uphill.

This one is clear. Poison is extremely hard and complex to use and will affect drastically due to player. They also have a few reliable ways to switch into Ground and Psychic. As you mentioned, Poison still has the disadvantage of fighting some upper class types and it's weaknesses.

Types of this tier should have at least a few choices of useful Pokemon, Legend/Mega/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, allowing some flexibility and creativity when building teams. These types can adapt to the metagame.

Poison has a massive variety of viable Poison types ranging from Crobat to Nidoqueen. Poison also has decent play-styles which create flexibility and creativity(?) when building teams. Also, Poison CAN adapt to the metagame if it has around a 50/50 matchup against a GOOD vs GOOD player.

Now explain, how does Fire also adapt to that. (Which I personally doesn't deserve to be mid-high.)



Fire doesn't need to adapt, it has mindless fire spam, which under sun, bruises the heftiest of Water types. And in sun, it has a nice variety of moves to damage its opponents, with many megas, playstyles,(Have you seen Trick Room + Camerupt-M), and versions of teams to play. And even as Poison adapts, it kinda.. kinda adapts terribly, its matchups aren't very favorable to almost anything. Its very hard to pull off a clean-and-easy reliable sweep with Poison, unlike Water, Dark, or Steel, which have ways to beat many types down.

Sabre wrote:I thought this was supposed to look at individual types as a whole; not individual Pokemon. Sure, Sylveon and Azumarill may lose to some Fire types. But there are ways Fairy can take on your mentioned Pokemon. Fairy may lose to Fire, but does it have options for your mentioned Pokemon? The one problem is that defenders of Fairy do not have a lot of chances against Fire-types; however Togekiss, Clefable and Klefki often run Thunder Wave to possibly check these Pokemon.

Also, Heatran wins against Fairy. I'm not lying about that. Unless you run EQ Granbull.

Because I believe we should not consider that one or two Pokemon can counter a team or an individual team, as Galom has stated we need to look at perks for the type in general, I will not be looking at individual Pokemon for this. But I already looked at the perks of Fairy, so now I will provide my rebuttal. So, I will show how Azumarill can check MCY and Darmanitan.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 192-228 (64.6 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 240-284 (59.8 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
On the same Azumarill set, Aqua Jet will do 32.3 - 38.3% to MCY. Chances are, Azumarill will beat Mega Charizard Y.

Onto Darmanitan.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan in Sun: 254-302 (72.3 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill in Sun: 243-286 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, the Azumarill in this set has Aqua Jet ( 36.4 - 43.3%), so the most likely result is defeat of Darmanitan, granted it is actually able to survive a hit from the Pokemon. If not, the Fairy player may have to resort to Granbull or Mawile(-Mega).

In conclusion, Fairy doesn't auto-loss to Fire. They still have options against other types. They may struggle with Fire; but played correctly, they can pull a victory. The options for other types are all there for the type, and a varied movepool grants them wins with correct playing. I hope this removes any personal bias towards Fairy. I understand you are a good battler, DGA, but I genuinely think Fairy should be High tier, even with pressure from skilled battlers like yourself.
I don't have any bias against Fairy, I rather like the type, and played a bit of it back when Mawile-M wasn't banned. Unfortunately, now, trying to play Fairy on ladder or in mono is kinda bad(The amounts of Excadrill are d i s g u s t i n g ). Believe me, I have no bias, but Fairy gets just destroyed (or destroyed) even facing teams it seems to be able to beat, seem to give it plenty of problems. Things like Dragon Iron Head/Earthquake/Poison Jab it to death. I used to play Trick Room Fairy with Diance + Mega Mawile back on ladder btw and loved it even if I lost matches.

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Re: [Official] Conquest Type Viability Thread (Updated 12/7/14)

Post by Sabre on Mon May 25, 2015 1:59 pm

High Tier: Reserved for types that get good match-ups for the most part. In a neutral matchup, these types should usually have a slight edge, and should have a decent chance at defeating their weaknesses. They should have an impressive selection of effective Pokemon, Mega/Legend/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or just have a few that work particularly well. These types influence the metagame.

Added Fairy Problems: Iron Head, Poison Jab, Earthquake

I'm going to explore the description of High Tier for Fairy right quick.

- "...good match-ups for the most part..."
I can see this. Fairy doesn't autoloss to any type if the player knows how to play around that type. Steel can be a problem, but Pokemon like Azumarill, Slurpuff and Fire Punch Granbull can provide a slight edge for the team. As an added note, Mawile and Granbull both have Intimidate, helping against their low defense; rendering them with fairly good match-ups.

- "...decent chance at defeating their weaknesses..."
I believe I have already covered this.

- "...should have a decent chance at defeating their weaknesses. They should have an impressive selection of effective Pokemon, Mega/Legend/Uber Pokemon, and play-styles, or just have a few that work particularly well..."

Here are some (sometimes surprisingly) effective Fairy's...
Mawile-Mega (works very well)
Diancie
Diancie-Mega
Azumarill (works very well)
Slurpuff (works very well)
Gardevoir-Mega
Whimsicott
Clefable (works very well)
Togekiss (works very well)
Klefki
Sylveon
Florges
Granbull

This is from some of the mono teams I have seen, such as this Fairy vs. Mono. In this, the Fairy player was able to deal with Steel in an effective way and had large early pressure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7xcbqUrMr8

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